Outward: Slate's LGBTQ podcast

Why would an out queer person in the Gay Liberation Days of the 1970s go to church? What church would they go to? And why would they stay? In the 1960s, and ‘70s, the separation between God and gays was not as vast as it seemed. Rev. Troy Perry started the first Metropolitan Community Church in his Los Angeles living room. Tired of flying to LA every week, a Navy veteran started the second one in a San Francisco gay bar. And the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco was there for a young lesbian as she navigated spirituality, coming out, and her increasingly conservative family. When her friend got sick, she tried to be there for him. Church helped. For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-2. Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Production credits: When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Tasty Morsels. Thanks to Dr. Heather White, author of Reforming Sodom: Protestants and the Rise of Gay Rights. Scott Bloom and Trogoidia Pictures for the use of clips from the film Call Me Troy. The Center for LGBTQ and Gender Studies at the Pacific School of Religion and the Graduate Theological Union for the use of an archival recording of Troy Perry’s last sermon as the minister at MCC Los Angeles. Kirke Machem for the use of his beautiful composition, “Blow Ye, the Trumpet,” from the opera, John Brown. Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As Outward proudly presents the 10-episode series When We All Get to Heaven, from Eureka Street Productions, Christina and Bryan had the privilege of sitting down with series host Lynne Gerber. Lynne explains how 1,200 cassette tapes became a wealth of archival audio that infuses this series with so much vitality, joy, and shared mourning of queer churches during a devastating epidemic. Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Produced by Palace Shaw. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In 1993, more than 10 years into the AIDS epidemic, the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco (MCC-SF) tries to remember all they’ve lost. We think about remembering too after encountering an archive of 1,200 cassette recordings of this queer church’s services during the height of the epidemic. Whether you’re a regular church goer or would never step into one, we invite you to spend time with this LGBTQ+ San Francisco church as it struggles to reconcile sexuality and faith in the midst of an existential crisis. For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-1. About the montage: The worship service in this episode was on February 28, 1993. The Dyke March proclamation was written and read by Rev. Lea Brown. Rev. Karen Foster read the statement that sexual orientation does not need to be changed. Jim Mitulski recalled his hospital visit with the man who recognized him by his shape. Paul Francis told strangers at a restaurant to get ugly lovers and Eric Rofes told his mother that he was going to stay safe and keep having sex. Cleve Jones had the vision of a thousand rotting corpses, Rev. Ron Russell Coons preached that we have AIDS as a community, and Rev. Troy Perry proclaimed a revival on Eureka Street. The other people heard in the episode are either unknown or did not want to be named. When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Tasty Morsels. Thanks to Paul Katz and Henry Machen for permission to use “June in San Francisco” from their fabulous 1991 musical Dirty Dreams of a Clean Cut Kid. The estate of Leonard Bernstein for the use of “Somewhere” from West Side Story. Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible. Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When We All Get to Heaven tells the story of one of the first LGBTQ-positive churches, the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco (MCC-SF), and how it faced the personal, social, and political trials of the AIDS epidemic, including the deaths of hundreds of its members. This 10-episode series uses historical tapes rescued from the church to bring listeners into the heart of a community struggling to live while struggling with faith. The first two episodes are available here at Outward on October 15. This show is produced by Eureka Street Productions. Our theme song, “When We All Get to Heaven,” was written by Eliza Hewitt and performed by MCC-SF’s congregation and choir. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Trans rights and access to health care have been under attack on the state level for years, but the second Trump administration and the Supreme Court have accelerated a chilling effect at clinics across the country. Guest: Grace Byron, author of “The Grim State of Trans Health Care” and “The Bureaucratic Nightmares of Being Trans Under Trump” for the New Yorker. Want more What Next? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and across all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Podcast production by Ethan Oberman, Elena Schwartz, Paige Osburn, Anna Phillips, Madeline Ducharme, and Rob Gunther. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Outward is going on a little summer break, in the meantime we’re leaving you with a delightfully queer episode of Slate’s Hit Parade with Chris Molanphy called Mighty Real. This is part two—catch part one in our previous episode. Little Richard was rock ‘n’ roll’s flamboyant architect. Lesley Gore sang that no one owned her. Sylvester was a gender-fluid icon who helped define disco. Freddie Mercury made rock operatic, and George Michael demanded freedom. What all of these LGBTQ artists had in common was bold hitmaking—and fear of being fully out of the closet. For decades, queer acts topped the charts while cloaking their true identities and paving the way for today’s more openly queer stars. For Pride Month, join Chris Molanphy as he traces the hidden history of queer hitmakers on the charts—including those that managed to be both out and No. 1, right up through our modern age of Lil Nas X and Chappell Roan. It’s a celebration of these artists’ quest to feel… mighty real. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Outward is going on a little summer break, in the meantime we’re leaving you with a delightfully queer episode of Slate’s Hit Parade with Chris Molanphy: Little Richard was rock ‘n’ roll’s flamboyant architect. Lesley Gore sang that no one owned her. Sylvester was a gender-fluid icon who helped define disco. Freddie Mercury made rock operatic, and George Michael demanded freedom. What all of these LGBTQ artists had in common was bold hitmaking—and fear of being fully out of the closet. For decades, queer acts topped the charts while cloaking their true identities and paving the way for today’s more openly queer stars. For Pride Month, join Chris Molanphy as he traces the hidden history of queer hitmakers on the charts—including those that managed to be both out and No. 1, right up through our modern age of Lil Nas X and Chappell Roan. It’s a celebration of these artists’ quest to feel… mighty real. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week, Bryan is joined by theologian, activist, and ballroom historian Michael Roberson to discuss his new book, Ballroom: A History, A Movement, A Celebration. Roberson traces the rich legacy of the ballroom scene—from its origins in resistance and survival, to its role in shaping public health responses during the height of the AIDS crisis and beyond, to its ongoing significance as a spiritual and communal refuge for Black and Latinx queer and trans people. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode of Outward, Bryan talks with Slate legal reporter Mark Joseph Stern about a federal judge’s sweeping and controversial ruling in United States v. Skrmetti, which could have massive consequences for access to gender-affirming care. Then, Christina sits down with Congresswoman Becca Balint to talk about what it means to advocate for trans rights inside a Congress where culture war rhetoric, and policy, are escalating fast. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week, Bryan talks with Christina about her new piece for Slate The Conservative Wave Is Having a Very Unexpected Effect on Pride which covers the power and politics of small-town Pride. Then, in the second half, they're joined by Van Knapp, co-founder of Canyon County Pride in Idaho, to talk about building queer joy in unlikely places. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week, Christina Cauterucci is joined by Erik Piepenburg, author of Dining Out, a new book that explores the history of gay restaurants in the United States. Piepenburg traces how restaurants have long served as essential spaces for queer people as places to gather, connect, and express themselves at a time when most public spaces were hostile or unsafe. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Outward’s Bryan Lowder and Christina Cauterucci talk to Alden Jones, editor of the new anthology, Edge of the World. With essays from Alexander Chee, Daisy Hernández, Edmund White, and more, the collection makes clear that queer travel writing isn’t just overdue—it’s transformative. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week, Bryan Lowder is joined by Hope Giselle and Dr. David Johns to discuss Iowa’s recent decision to strip trans people of key legal protections, making it legal to discriminate based on gender identity. They explore the broader implications of this rollback, drawing parallels to the historical dismantling of rights during Reconstruction and the rise of Jim Crow. They discuss what this moment means for the future of trans rights and the strategies needed to organize and push back against this growing legal threat. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, Christina Cauterucci speaks with Zein Murib, Fordham professor and author of Terms of Exclusion: Rightful Citizenship Claims and the Construction of LGBT Political Identity, about the historical roots of the marginalization of trans and bi people in the gay rights movement. Zein, who recently wrote the Slate piece "Why Are Trans People Such an Easy Political Target? " breaks down how the movement’s focus on a narrow definition of identity left trans and bi people vulnerable to political attacks. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Christina Cauterucci speaks with Suzanne Ford, executive director of San Francisco Pride, about the goals and challenges of organizing Pride this year amid the corporate retreat from LGBTQ+ issues. They discuss the current political climate, how corporate sponsorship shapes the event, and how to maintain visibility and safety without losing political urgency. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, Christina Cauterucci and Jules Gill-Peterson discuss Christina’s latest Slate article, The New Lavender Scare, which highlights the experiences of queer and trans federal employees grappling with the threat of retaliation, job loss, and a chilling political climate. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode of Outward, Jules Gill-Peterson sits down with Colby Gordon to talk about his new book, Glorious Bodies: Trans Theology and Renaissance Literature. Gordon digs into early modern religious texts that, instead of rejecting trans existence, actually provided ways to think about gender transformation—socially, surgically, and theologically. They explore what Shakespeare, Milton, and other writers had to say about gender, how history challenges today’s assumptions about transition, and why the right-wing war on trans people gets the past all wrong. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A gun won’t make you safer, but it will pull you into America’s deep-seated obsession with armed individualism. This week, Bryan, Christina, and Jules dig into The Washington Post’s “The Trans Americans Turning to Guns for Protection” and Defector’s “Don't Buy a Gun, Even If It Comes in Rainbow” to unpack the recent interest around queer gun ownership—and why safety has never really been the point of gun culture. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week, Bryan Lowder sits down with activist and author Dean Spade to discuss his latest book, Love in a F*cked Up World. Together, they unpack how capitalism, white supremacy, and patriarchy shape our desires, the pitfalls of the “relationship escalator,” and why collective care might be the most radical love of all. From breaking free of toxic relationship scripts to reimagining intimacy beyond hierarchy and control, this conversation challenges everything we’ve been taught about love—and offers a vision for something more liberatory. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week on Outward, host Christina Cauterucci talks to historian Rebecca Scofield about the new book, Slapping Leather: Queer Cowfolx at the Gay Rodeo. From rhinestone-studded chaps to the hard-won battles for inclusion, they explore how queer cowboys and cowgirls carved out space in the rodeo circuit, the gender politics at play in this community, and how the AIDS crisis shaped its trajectory. Plus, they dig into the current resurgence of cowboy aesthetics in queer culture and pop culture at large. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices