The Future of Education

Joe Ross, president of Reach University, joined me to offer an alternative take on where the “College for All” movement went wrong. His analogy? One that will be familiar to my audience—computers. Specifically, disruptive innovation in computing. Our discussion covered the historical cycles of higher education reform, the false dichotomy between liberal arts and career-connected learning, and the emergence of disruptive models like apprenticeship degrees that integrate workplace learning, reduce costs, and challenge traditional assumptions about who higher education serves and how. Show Notes: A Student’s Guide to Apple Computer Guide for Apple Computers by Simpson’s creator, Matt Groening Michael Horn Welcome to the Future of Education. I’m Michael Horn. You’re joining the show where we’re dedicated to creating a world in which all individuals can build their passions, fulfill their potential, live lives of purpose. And to help us think through that, today, I’m delighted we’ve got one of my favorite folks in the world of education joining us. He’s none other than Joe Ross. He’s the president of Reach University. You’ve seen me appear on his podcast, and I thought it was only fair play, Joe, that we had you on mine now. So welcome. Joe Ross Well, really excited to be here to see you again, Michael. How’s it going? Michael Horn Good, good. I’m. I’m excited for this conversation. You and I have been riffing on a few topics together a lot, asynchronously, a little synchronously. And so we’ll let people into our headspace here. But I want to pose a question for you. It’s sort of almost a riddle, if you will. Okay, so we’ll go back to the late 1970s. I think it’s 1977 or something like that. Ken Olson, he’s the CEO of this company called Digital Equipment Corporation. They make mini computers. And he has this quote that there’s no reason for any individual to have a computer in their home. And, I’m gonna share with you what a computer to him at that time looked like. We’ll share that up there for folks, this is what a mini computer looked like. It was like a very, very large file cabinet. Yeah, not particularly mini. Joe Ross Yeah, right. Michael Horn Cost quarter million dollars. And I think the mental thing in his head, Joe, was like, hey, computers for all. Everyone’s buzzing about this in the hobbyist circles and stuff like that. Are you crazy? We’re not scaling this thing to every single home. What’s wrong with the picture I just painted? Joe Ross Well, it’s funny, just a couple years later, Microsoft was getting started, and the vision that Bill Gates put out there was a computer on every desk and in every home. So there was a rising tide of the sentiment that computers actually should be for all. And it took some time. But what’s striking today right now is I think well over 95% of households do, in fact, have a computer on a desk or in their household. And that is a huge turnaround. So, yeah, famous last words. Michael Horn Famous last words. Right. And so it’s the power I think you’re pointing to is disruptive innovation. Right. People didn’t think of computers at that time as these small, dimpy little things that then Microsoft comes along and, you know, it’s a couple thousand dollars, it’s a toy for hobbyists and children. It’s radically more affordable, convenient, portable over time and so forth, and it. And it literally changes the world. And then you made the observation to me that there’s been this quote unquote, College For All movement. Questioning the necessity of college Michael Horn There’ve been a bunch of people like me questioning that movement as of late. But you said there’s like another possibility, which is we’ve gone about College For All in sort of the most backwards way you would go about it in any other sector of the world. So, maybe talk us through your thinking there and you have like a really interesting statistic that goes, I think, 10 years or so later, 1989, if I’m...

In 2012, Clay Christensen joined with James Alworth and Karen Dillon to write what I think of as one of the most important books out there called How Will You Measure Your Life. It was based on a the last class that he did at the Harvard Business School every single year. And in this conversation that you’re about to hear, Karen Dillon, Scott Anthony, another of Clay’s acolytes, and me got together and were interviewed by some students at the Harvard School of Public Health to think about how we measure our lives and things that we take from that—to really make sure that we’re living in concert with purpose and the progress we seek to make and not drifting off course. I hope you enjoy the conversation that I’m bringing to you here that was recorded live on April 3rd. The Future of Education is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Paid subscribers receive unlimited access to My Delphi as well—helpful when I’m choosing family over “one more call”! Victor First, I’d like to quickly introduce ourselves and then just set up the backdrop for today’s conversation. Thank you everyone. My name is Victor. I’m one of the co leads of the Parents at Harvard Chan community which is the Parents club of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health Along with my co moderator Martin we are really grateful to bring this conversation together. And this conversation is a part of the whole life Leadership speaker series, a Harvard affiliated series exploring one central question. What are the pivotal mindsets, habits and tools needed to succeed both at work and at home? At its core, the series is built on a simple belief that leadership is not compartmentalized. Honoring Clayton Christensen’s legacy Victor How we show at work and how we set up at home are deeply connected. And today leaders we have a very special session. We are gathering to honor the legacy of Professor Clayton Christensen, whose work reshaped how the work understands innovation, but who also challenged us to think more deeply about something even more important, which is how we measure our lives. In his well known framework, Clay encouraged us to think about three key questions. How do we find meaning in our careers? How do we build enduring relationships? And how we live lives of integrity. And today we’re honored to be joined by three remarkable individuals, thinkers and leaders who have engaged deeply with Clay’s work and ideas and they will help us explore how these principles apply in real life. First, we have Scott Anthony. Scott is a Clinical professor of Strategy at the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth and previously spent over two decades at Innosight, the forum co-founded by Clay Christensen, where he served as a global managing partner. He’s a leading thinker on innovation and disruption, a Thinkers50 award winner and author of several influential books including Dual Transformation and the most recently, Epic Disruptions. Scott brings both deep intellectual and practical perspectives on how Clay’s idea have evolved and been applied over time. Next we have Karen Dillon. Karen is a co author of How Will You Measure Your Life based on Clay’s work and teaching and served as the editor of Harvard Business Review. She worked closely with Clay for over a decade and has been instrumental in translating his ideas into guidance for individuals navigating life leadership and well being. Her current work focuses on helping people understand how everyday decisions shape long term outcomes, including her recent book the Macro Stress Effect. And finally, we have Michael Horn. Michael is a co-founder of the Clay Christensen Institute for Disruptive Innovation and a faculty member at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. He is a widely recognized author and thought leader in education and career development, including his recent new book, Job Moves. Michael’s work focuses on helping...

Yet another episode where I crash someone else’s podcast! James Cryan, CEO and founder of Willow Education, invited me back on his podcast for his excellent Substack, Purposeful Paths, to reflect on my predictions from last year and to make forecasts for the coming year. Our conversation dove deep into topics like the slow momentum of apprenticeships in non-traditional sectors, increased emphasis on experiential and work-based learning, pressure mounting on traditional colleges amid demographic changes, and the realities behind skills-based hiring. We discussed policy shifts, the impact of AI on career readiness, the role of community colleges, and potential regulations around social media and AI for young people. A lot in other words. But most importantly, perhaps, we held ourselves accountable for our predictions last year. Check out how we graded ourselves and let us know your thoughts—and predictions. The Future of Education is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Michael Horn If you’ve ever been annoyed by people who make predictions about what’s to come in the year ahead around January in education, and then don’t hold themselves to account for the predictions that they made, this conversation is for you. Look, I know a lot of you have probably been annoyed with me over the years because I love making those predictions often. But in this conversation, James Cryan, the CEO and founder of Willow Education, holds me to account. This comes on the heels of a conversation that the two of us had last year where we went over predictions we had for 2025. And in this conversation that you’re about to hear, recorded with a group of other people on a webinar that James hosted me for, we go over those predictions from 2025 and give ourselves some grades. I’ll give you a quick heads up. I was overly harsh, I think, on my results. I think I did actually all right overall. And then we talked about some predictions to come for 2026. See what you think. Can’t wait to hear from you and enjoy the conversation. James Cryan Well, let’s get started. This should be fun. Michael, thank you for joining me again. You’re— I think I told you this, but you’re our first ever repeat guest. No one will ever be the first ever repeat guest to the— Michael Horn Oh yeah, that’s pretty good. Okay. James Cryan Virtual Conversation Series. So kudos. Kudos to you for that accomplishment. I hope that comes to the top of your resume quite quickly. If folks don’t know Michael, A, I’d be surprised. And B, Michael, you’re just one of the most forward-thinking, prolific thinkers about the future of education and workforce and keeping on top of all the trends, research, and people and companies who are doing really interesting and fun work trying to transform education for the better in our country. So thank you for joining us. And if you don’t know me, my name is James and I’m the CEO and founder of Willow Education. We are a career readiness platform and curriculum that school districts use to support their young people in developing purpose, in exploring and experiencing different careers and work-based learning opportunities, and then making a high-quality post-secondary plan. And our big innovation, and it’s kind of silly to call it an innovation, but we’ve got two innovations. One is we are highly opinionated about the quality of next steps and programs when we project a personalized ROI for each young person. And two is we serve all students. We serve the kids who are going to college like everybody does, and we also serve the students who choose not to go to college after high school, which right now very few forums and curricula do. And so that’s kind of the day job, and the fun part of my job is I get to have conversations with leading thinkers like Michael on what is, what can we do to realize the American dream in our country? What can we do to make sure that...

I’m normally the one asking the questions on this podcast. But when Kelly Smith, founder of the microschools solutions provider, Prenda, reached out with a bigger question around how has disruptive innovation in education evolved since Clay Christensen, Curtis Johnson, and I published Disrupting Class, I was thrilled to join him in a conversation on his KindlED podcast (check it out!)—with the idea that I’d also post it here. In this conversation, we discussed why technology alone did not (and will not!) produce the student-centered transformation many expected, how entrenched school structures and family habits can slow change, and how microschools, homeschooling, and education savings accounts are creating new pathways for more customized learning. We also reflected on the growing role of parents in shaping educational choices, the relationship between learner-centeredness and rigor, and what a more pluralistic, choice-filled future for schooling could look like. I hope you enjoy our conversation—and look forward to your thoughts. Michael Horn: A school doesn’t move to mastery-based learning, but they move to mastery-based grading, which I think is the wrong way to organize the world, but they’ll make that move first. And parents are like, whoa, like rebellion, right? Like, what are you doing? So like, you can see when you jump ahead of them, yeah, you get pushback. But if the parents are in the driver’s seat and they’re sort of piece by piece, like, wait, can I do that? Wait, can I have that? Like, they start to assemble the pieces in community. Kelly Smith: Hello and welcome to the Kindled Podcast for another exciting episode. I’m Kelly Smith. I’ll be your host today. I’m excited to be talking to Michael Horn. Michael’s an award-winning author. He’s written 8 books, including a national bestseller, Job Moves: 9 Steps for Making Progress in Your Career. He’s also teaching at the Harvard Graduate School of Education, and he co-founded the Clayton Christensen Institute for Disruptive Innovation, which is a nonprofit think tank, along with Clayton Christensen. We’ll be talking about that in today’s episode. Michael strives to create a world in which all individuals can build their passions, fulfill their potential, and live a life of meaning through his writing, speaking, and work with a portfolio of education organizations. I’ve known Michael for years. He’s influential in my personal story. I’m very grateful that he took the time to sit and talk with us. I think you’re going to love the insights on what’s happening in the education world, How does disruptive innovation as a theory apply to what we’re seeing right now? And where does this all go from here? So with that, Michael Horn. All right, Michael Horn, thank you so much for joining me on the KindlED Podcast. We’re excited to talk today. Michael Horn: I’m thrilled to be with you, Kelly. Like, I was thinking about it when you were starting up Prenda, man, what is it like 10 years at this point or something like that? Kelly Smith: Pretty close. I think I was in the year 2017, so that would’ve been 9 years ago. Microschools Nomenclature Michael Horn: Wild. So like, uh, yeah, it’s, it’s been, it’s been fun to watch you all grow and redefine learning and, and, and, you know, around the kitchen table for so many families and families coming together and create such cool spaces. So I’m delighted to be with you. Kelly Smith: Well, not, not to go too hard on the love fest here, but you were using the word microschool online and I wasn’t sure what to call it. I actually went through a brief stint. You could probably still find this out there. I was writing about nano schools because I thought, you know, some people are saying microschools really. Feels still like a school. I was really talking about something different, like very small groups with one adult. And I used nano schools a couple times. My wife put a stop to it. She’s like, that’s way too nerdy. And I...

Bryan Hassel and Ashley Williams from Public Impact joined me to discuss the Opportunity Culture model, which is transforming the traditional “one teacher, one classroom” approach. We explored how this model extends the reach of excellent teachers through leadership roles, shared practical lessons from scaling the model, discussed challenges like overcoming ingrained mindsets and transition costs, and looked ahead at how technology, policy changes, and innovative staffing can make these transformations more accessible and sustainable for schools everywhere. I featured Opportunity Culture in my most recent book on K–12 education titled “From Reopen to Reinvent: (Re)creating School for Every Child,” as a major argument I make is that asking teachers to be superheroes and be all things to all students is an insane job description. The work Bryan and Ashley are doing speaks to a great solution—that also makes the job of teaching more motivating and viable. Michael Horn Welcome to The Future of Education. I’m Michael Horn. You’re joining the show where we’re dedicated to creating a world in which all individuals can build their passions, fulfill their potential, and live lives of purpose. And to help us think through that today, we’ve got two incredible guests that is tackling one of my favorite topics, which is rethinking the role of educators in school. We’ll get more into that in a moment. But first, let me introduce them. We have Bryan Hassell, the co-president of Public Impact. Bryan, good to see you. Bryan Hassel Good to see you, Michael. Michael Horn And we’ve got Ashley Williams, who serves as the vice president of innovation and specialty services at Public Impact. Ashley, good to see you as well. Ashley Williams Yeah, you as well. Michael Horn I’m excited for this conversation, Bryan. I think I’m going to get the chronology slightly wrong, but I think pretty close. You and I were working on a bunch of blended learning projects together probably 13, 14 years ago or something like that. And then my recollection is out of that, you sort of said like, wow, there are other things we could do with innovation as well. And we could start rethinking the role of the teacher and sort of how they interact with other teachers in the building. And one of my favorite things is like there was the movie Waiting for Superman, and I was like, the biggest problem with that movie is the title that we’re expecting every teacher to be a superhero and do like an unfathomable list of things for kids. And then of course, out of that, I think you and your colleagues created this notion of the opportunity culture staffing design model, and you had a range of models for how to really distribute responsibilities and create teams and management structures and all sorts of things for the adults in the building to better serve kids. And it was, you know, I’ve written about it several times now. Rethinking Education Through Innovation Michael Horn It’s in my most recent book, From Reopen to Reinvent. The chapter sort of formed around what y’all have been doing with opportunity culture. This notion really of teaching should be a team sport. But maybe, Bryan, in your words, like when you all created this, what challenges were you aiming to address? How do you think about opportunity culture today? And then, Ashley, if you have anything to jump in on, please. Bryan Hassel Yeah, Michael, that’s a really good introduction. It really does go back to that time period. And I think, you know, Emily Hassel, the co-president of Public Impact, was really thinking about, you know, the one teacher, one classroom model. I mean, Michael, you’ve written about— with Clay Christensen, you wrote about how kind of hard and fast these notions of schooling are, right? It’s like there’s one teacher for each classroom, we assign kids there, and that’s how almost every single school in the country has worked for 100 years. And so Emily started thinking, what could...

States across the country are banning cellphones in schools to try and restore order, attention, connection, and more in schools. As I’ve written extensively, my concern isn’t that schools should take this action in many cases, but that top-down bans (even with carve outs for educational uses) will likely (even if unintentionally) crack down on those schools and educators who have found good uses for phones in schools. And there are many of these use cases, as I’ve written. But how can schools gain control of this issue? Shannon Godfrey and Julia Gustafson, the founders of a new company, The Commons App, joined me to explore how schools can rejuvenate “the commons”—that is, shared spaces for learning and genuine connection—by intelligently managing smartphone distractions. Our conversation dug into the pitfalls of total phone bans; shared insights from public health and education technology on why nuanced, evidence-driven solutions matter; and detailed how The Commons App uses behavioral economics and geofencing to block the most distracting apps during school hours. Shannon and Julia talked to me about the importance of teaching self-regulation, involving technology directors in school policy decisions, and supporting educators in fostering healthy digital habits among students—and why that is something important for schools to wade into. I found the conversation illuminating and look forward to your thoughts after you’ve listened, watched, or read the whole thing. Michael Horn Welcome to the Future of Education. I’m Michael Horn. You’re joining the show where we’re dedicated to creating a world in which all individuals can build their passions, fulfill their potential and live lives of purpose. And to help us think through that, today we have the co-founders of the Commons app, as they call it, airplane mode for schools. We’re going to find out a lot about that and more in this conversation that I expect to go in a number of places. But first let me say hi to our guests and the co-founders of the Commons app, Shannon Godfrey and Julia Gustafson. Julia, Shannon, great to see you. Thanks so much for being here. Shannon Godfrey Yes, thanks for having us on. We’re excited for the conversation. Julia Gustafson Thanks, Michael. Michael Horn I’m looking forward to it as well. And I’ll give folks a little bit of background on how we got here, which is I had written a piece with an argument that I made a few times, but a lot of my audience probably saw that, in my judgment, a lot of the bans right now on cellphones, smartphones in particular in schools, while they do have an education use case clause, escape valve, if you will, in many cases, in my judgment they create a worrisome trend where, yes, in many cases phones are huge distractions and I would ban them and so forth from my individual classroom or use cases. And there are these moments, there are these teachers, there are these learning models who have created tremendously productive uses with those phones to really, actually engage and create a more active learning environment than they otherwise would. And I reflected on my own teaching practice at Harvard where for the most part it’s a phone-free classroom. We are having Socratic conversation, it’s pretty active. And then every once in a while we have checks for understanding or various polls to set up debates and things of that nature. And I say bring out your phones or your laptops. Let’s you know, do a quick pulse check here. And then that allows the class to move accordingly. And my concern being, hey, it only takes one person to say that’s not actually educational use case. And all of a sudden you have a major nightmare on the hands of teachers. And so then, Shannon, you and I got connected through that because you basically said like, all well and good, Michael, but there’s a way to get beyond the sort of all or nothing that we’re looking at through actually a technology solution. And I said, wow, that’s...

The Benjamin Franklin Cummings Institute of Technology (FC Tech), launched over a century ago out of the estate of Benjamin Franklin, recently had a ribbon-cutting ceremony on its brand-new campus in Roxbury in Boston. As covered recently in the Boston Globe, only six years ago, the school was seeking just to see its mission survive through a merger with the Wentworth Institute of Technology.. But after a big donation of $12.5 million from Bill and Joyce Cummings, the school has preserved its independence and grown. In this episode, Danny Curtis spoke with the institution’s president, Aisha Francis, about how FC Tech is innovating to prepare the next generation of technical professionals through robust work-based learning opportunities. Aisha shared her personal background in education, the institution’s history, and how FC Tech’s mission has remained focused on broadening access to high-quality technical and trade education. In particular, subscribers will be interested in the discussion around the development and expansion of co-op and apprenticeship models that enable students to gain practical experience and earn income without increasing their time to degree in this two-year, full-time model. Danny Curtis Welcome to the Future of Education. I’m Danny Curtis and you are joining the show where we are dedicated to creating a world in which all individuals can build their passions, fulfill their potential and live lives of purpose. And to help us think through that, today I am delighted to be joined by Dr. Aisha Francis, President of the Benjamin Franklin Cummings Institute of Technology, a college in Boston, educating students who aspire to advance themselves in the technical fields. I have had the pleasure of working with Aisha on FC Tech’s work around dual enrollment and industry alignment in the past and through that experience have gotten an up close look at the mission-driven innovation that they’re doing on their campus. And so I’m so excited to have her today to share about how they’re serving students through work-based learning. And Aisha, especially appreciate you carving out the time to join us because I know that this is a very busy time of year. So yeah, just thank you so much for being here. Aisha Francis Well, thank you, thank you for having me and I’m really happy to be in conversation with you today. Danny Curtis Awesome. Well, let’s jump right in. So by way of introduction and just because I think it’s always so interesting to hear about college presidents’ paths to the role, I’d love if you could share more about your own pathway to becoming FC Tech’s president and how that path has sort of shaped your leadership in your time in that role. Aisha’s Journey to Education Leadership Aisha Francis Well, that’s a wonderful question. It gives me an opportunity to reflect and share on my early childhood. I am someone who is from Nashville, Tennessee originally and I come from a family where a lot of people, people were educators and a lot of family members were in medicine, specifically in nursing. And I think I’m an example of this adage of if you can see it, you can be it. And I initially wanted to follow in my grandmother’s footsteps. She was a nurse. And then chemistry hit me really hard in the head and I thought maybe there’s some other things that will allow me to lead from my strengths. And education seemed like a wonderful pursuit. And so from an early age I wanted to be in the education field. That desire evolved and I pursued English literature in college and went on to earn a doctorate. Earned my doctorate in English literature, all in Nashville and did all of my education there really cheerful by this extended family network of folks who were all kinds of teachers, paraprofessionals in preschools, and head start to administrators with master’s degrees. So when I finished that process, I did teach in the academy for a brief period of time and had been exposed to a lot of nonprofit work in...

Two past guests of mine—Tom Arnett and Tyler Thigpen—joined me on this episode for a wide-ranging conversation on what it will take for microschools, or low-cost private schools, to “go upmarket” and attract more high school students. Our conversation revolved around whether one of the key current stumbling blocks is too many of these schools don’t offer enough “Friday Night Lights” and prom-type events—and if the reason those things are important is because of the critical role they and other such traditions play in identity formation and community connection for high schoolers. Our discussion dove into the challenges and innovations around helping students develop a sense of identity, community, and belonging within smaller, learner-centered school models. Tyler shared practical strategies from his perch leading the Forest School at Acton Academy, including student-led sports, theater, and flexible approaches to high school structure, while Tom reflected on the importance of supporting identity formation and building a strong value network around alternative school models. After listening, we’d love your take as well. What will it take for microschools and other self-directed learning environments to go mainstream? How might they tackle issues of scale, social connection, legitimacy, and supportive ecosystems without undermining the things that make them valuable to the students and families initially enrolling in them? Michael Horn Welcome everyone, to the Future of Education. I’m Michael Horn. You’re joining the show where we’re dedicated to creating a world in which all individuals can build their passions, fulfill their potential and live lives of purpose. And to help us think through an aspect of that, today I’m bringing back two friends who’ve been on the podcast at least a couple times each, I believe. We’ve got Tom Arnett at the Christensen Institute, and of course Tyler Thigpen, CEO of the Forest School at Acton Academy and of course the leader of the Institute for Self Directed Learning. We’ve had Tyler on, talking about that in his fantastic book on the topic of self directed learning. So, Tyler, Tom, great to see you both. Tom Arnett Good to be with you, Michael, great to be with you. Rethinking Education and Identity Michael Horn Well, we’ll see how we all feel by the end. But the topic I want to get into today is really this question of, you know, Tom and I have observed a lot of times that microschools have a lot of the characteristics of disruptive innovation. They look, you know, by traditional metrics in terms of the scope and breadth of services that your comprehensive schools can provide. They look primitive. They don’t have all the, you know, every single offering you can imagine, from cheerleading to football to volleyball to science labs to bands to choirs, you know, five different versions of beauty shop, quartet, et cetera. And so they come in at the low end, right? And the theory of disruptive innovation says for them to actually over time change or disrupt traditional schooling, they have to actually improve. And so the way disruptive innovations typically do that is by using some sort of technology enabler, they start to creep up the Y axis, if you will, and pack in more and more functions and features, but without replicating all the traditional trappings of the existing paradigm. They don’t replicate the cost structure. They don’t replicate, in this case, we would think the time bound sort of nature. I would think of the existing school districts and sort of the grammar of schooling that David Tayak and Larry Cuban have historically written about when it comes to K12 schools. And I think a real puzzle, Tom, for us has been what will it take for these schools? And microschools may be the wrong word. I think that’s sort of too small an idea, no pun intended. But these new schools, like, how would they go up market, right, to start to displace the way of education that we’ve typically...

Two of my former students and now entrepreneurs Abdi Guleed and Kedaar Sridhar of M7E AI joined me to explore how they’re using AI to make math curricula more accessible for all students, especially those facing linguistic barriers. Abdi and Kedaar shared their personal stories and the research that inspired them to create M7E AI, a tool that works with curriculum providers to streamline and clarify math content before it reaches classrooms. Our conversation highlighted challenges districts face when evaluating curriculum, the platform’s innovative seven-factor framework for language accessibility, and the ways AI can help districts, publishers, and educators create more equitable learning experiences. Michael Horn Hey, Michael, here. What you’re about to hear is a webinar that I hosted for a company, M7E, that full disclosure, I’m an advisor to. It’s two of my former students that founded it. And it’s a very cool AI tool that does something different from a lot of the tools out there on the market. It’s not student facing, it’s not teacher facing. What it does is it works with curriculum providers to take their math content specifically and use the AI with a set of clear rules to reduce the language complexity so that the curriculum is actually teaching and assessing on the math skills rather than some of the language things that might run interference for multilingual learners in particular, I hope you enjoy the webinar that we recorded, find it interesting, informative, and that it sparked some questions for you about how else might we use AI that sort of steps out of the typical notion of just, hey, it’s a chatbot, and where are the applications that might take off that could make an impact in education. Let me introduce the two folks first who have been digging into this problem from both the research and product perspective. First of all, we have Abdi, I’m looking for you on my screen. There you are, Abdi Guleed. He’s a Harvard Education Entrepreneurship fellow and the co-founder of M7E AI. And we also have Kedaar Sridhar, also a Harvard Education Entrepreneurship fellow and also the co-founder of M7E AI both, as I said, former students in my class. And together they’ve built this company and product that really evaluates these existing math problems and tasks for linguistic clarity and accessibility. They flag hidden barriers that can trip up students and then they suggest, I think, importantly, revisions to keep the mathematical rigor intact, but while making the language and design more equitable. So I’m excited to bring them in. And Abdi, Kedaar, welcome. I want to get into it. The way we’ll do this is I have a couple questions for you guys up front and then I’m going to sort of give you the stage, if you will, to maybe show what you guys have developed and how you’ve been using it with some curriculum companies. But I think your own personal stories to this, I got to watch it a little bit up close. But for those that don’t know, you tell us your own personal stories about how you came to build this tool. Why did you see it as a big problem worth solving? Because I know a lot of folks don’t even tend to think about these challenges a lot of times. So Kedaar, Abdi, whoever of you wants to take it first. AI Tool Enhancing Math Curriculum Abdi Guleed Thank you so much, Michael. And thank you everyone for joining us today. My name is Abdi. I grew up in Norway and like Michael said earlier as well. But I remember very clearly how math content was created and how that shaped my experience as a learner. And a lot of that stuck with me as I was growing up. And then I came to the US as a student athlete in track and field and built a career always around the core theme of using technology to make learning and organizational process more effective. I spent years working with data and AI, especially my master’s program with Kedaar, where most of our work was focused on how AI can streamline complex manual processes. So...

Lynn Liao and Taryn Campbell from Cambiar Quest joined me to talk about their approach to scaling real-world work experiences for secondary students through micro-internships. This is an important topic because while people like me have been arguing for more real-world learning opportunities for middle and high school students, how to source those opportunities and make sure they are meaningful such that it’s not a burden on businesses and other organizations is a real challenge. Lynn and Taryn discussed how Cambiar Quest handles this in their partnerships with schools and local businesses to create team-based, class projects that help students develop essential “durable skills” like communication, critical thinking, and collaboration. They shared insights on how the program reduces burden on partnering businesses so that it’s widely accessible, the scaffolding provided for both students and educators, and the strong positive outcomes they’ve seen so far. It’s early in their learning journey as you’ll hear. Highly recommend. Michael Horn Welcome to the Future of Education. I’m Michael Horn. You’re joining the show where we’re dedicated to creating a world in which all individuals can build their passions, fulfill their potential, and live lives of purpose. And to help us think through that, today, I’m delighted. We have two guests who’ve been at the front lines, I think it’s safe to say, of really thinking what that looks like in the current era, current age that we are entering as a society. We have Lynn Liao, she’s the managing director at Cambiar Quest. And Taryn Campbell, the director at Cambiar Quest. And so first I’ll just say Lynn, Taryn, welcome. I’m delighted to have you both here. Lynn Liao We’re thrilled to talk to you. Our mission is so aligned with what you just described. Michael Horn Well, it’s going to be a fun conversation because you all, the three of us, had a chance to talk maybe a month or so ago and frankly, I had no idea the breadth of the work that you all were doing. And I think it really answers a key question that I think is so important at this moment in time. But we’ll get to that in a moment. Maybe let’s just set the foundation for folks. And Lynn, I’ll start with you. Just what is Cambiar? What is Cambiar Quest, sort of set the stage for our audience so that they know the organization in which you work and the work you’ve been up to. Essential Durable Skills for Success Lynn Liao Sure. So Cambiar Education is a venture studio that is seeking to change the marketplace for education so that the products and services that truly make the biggest difference for students and educators and parents really succeed. And we know that that is not always the case in how the marketplace works right now. Our goal, our, our big vision is to have a life changing impact for more than a million students. And we do that both by incubating entrepreneurs who are creating these new ideas and supporting their development and growth. And we also direct run programs. So Quest is an example of a direct run Cambiar program. Quest is solely focused on career exploration and development for students, very much in line with what you described your mission is. So we are really, we have multiple programs where we help students really build the durable skills necessary for career exploration and for them to really be the ones navigating their way to the future that they are seeking. And then we can dive more into the micro internship, which I think is the program we’re focusing on today. Michael Horn Yeah, yeah. No, I definitely want to do that. And before, before maybe we jump in that you mentioned durable skills. As we discussed when we had this offline conversation about a month ago, everyone has a definition for durable skills. Maybe ground us in how you all think about durable skills and how they port from one context to another or maybe which don’t and have to be specifically engineered. Lynn Liao Sure....

One programming note: I will be publishing just one more general update before the end of the year—on Friday, December 26th—which will be free for all to read. I hope many of you are able to unplug for the most part and spend some time with loved ones over the next several days. I’ll be back in your inbox in the new year on Monday, January 5th with an article for paid subscribers. We’ll then get back to our regular publishing schedule. Thanks for all this year—and happy holidays. For now, enjoy this conversation that my colleague, Danny Curtis, hosted. — Michael B. Horn Danny Curtis sat down with Tommy Hodges, dean at the University of South Carolina’s College of Education, to discuss the innovative CarolinaCrED teacher education program. Tommy explained how the program leverages a competency-based, micro-credential approach to better recognize the skills that aspiring educators bring from diverse backgrounds, while personalizing their training to fill specific skill gaps. The conversation explores the collaborative design with school districts, the data showing strong retention and instructional quality among program graduates, and the unique advantages and challenges of developing such a program within a large university. Danny Curtis Welcome to the Future of Education. I’m Danny Curtis and you’re joining the show where we are committed to creating a world in which individuals can build their passion, fulfill their potential, and live lives of purpose. And to help us think through that today we are so excited to be joined by Tommy Hodges, who is dean at the University of South Carolina’s College of Education and recently the interim Dean at the College of Arts and Sciences. And I’m so excited to have him on to learn more about the innovative commodity based teacher education program that he helped to create at U of SC called CarolinaCrED. Tommy, thanks so much for joining us. Tommy Hodges Danny, thanks for having me. It’s an honor. Competency-Based Teacher Education Danny Curtis Awesome. Well, let’s jump right in. So I’d love to start just by hearing in your own words what Carolina CrED is and how it’s different from other teacher certification programs in the state. Tommy Hodges Yeah. So Carolina CrED is a broad umbrella with a number of outreach programs. So we’ve encapsulated a number of different entities that are grounded first in community based needs. So it includes the Carolina Teacher Induction Program, which provides induction supports. It includes an alternative preparation program which is really where much of the focus today, I can talk in some detail around the microcredential work that we’ve done there. That is a career changer program that’s predominantly focused on rural regions across the state, but it also has personalized and tailored degree programs that are offered through it. So we see a number of our different outreach efforts in the College of Education having their intellectual home inside Carolina CrED. And then one of those is the MCrED or the Microcredential Enterprise. So that is something that’s now supporting upwards of nearly 300 aspiring educators across the state. To date, the Carolina Teacher Induction Program has supported nearly 1,000 teachers. And then countless individuals have participated in those contractual degree programs too. So really has these multiple arms of it, one of which being really grounded in the microcredential enterprise and then others of them also picking up pieces of that. Danny Curtis Yeah. And I want to stay with the model here. Could you talk through a bit, the role that competency-based assessment and education plays within the Carolina CrED model? Tommy Hodges Yeah. So I would like to believe that teacher education has always somewhat been competency based, certainly through accreditation. We’re deeply interested in the outcomes that we have for our teacher candidates and their ability to engage in high quality instruction with kids and...

Amanda Kocon, Chief Strategy and Operations Officer at Edmentum, joined me and Danny to explore how digital curriculum can help scale career-connected learning for all students. Amanda discussed the driving forces behind the shift toward career readiness in K–12 education and emphasized the need to close exposure gaps and lower switching costs for students exploring different career paths. She detailed Edmentum’s recent acquisition of MajorClarity and their partnership with Interplay, which is enabling districts to integrate CTE courses, simulation-based trades training, and comprehensive college and career planning tools. I was excited to dig into how exactly we can scale opportunities for all students to have broad, student-driven career explorations in every district to ensure every student graduates with valuable skills and real career options. Michael Horn Welcome to the Future of Education. I’m Michael Horn. You’re joining the show where we’re dedicated to creating a world in which all individuals can build their passions, fulfill their potential and live lives of purpose. And to help us illuminate that today, I’m thrilled that my co-conspirator Danny Curtis is here because we’ve got a very good conversation teed up today. Danny, good to see you. Danny Curtis It’s great to be here, Michael. Always nice to chat with you and especially today because we get to talk about one of our favorite topics. Michael Horn Exactly. And you and I wrote this piece, I don’t know, about a year and a half ago at this point, I think, for Education Next, where we said, look, career-connected learning really should not be a “for some,” it’s really a “for all,” increasingly. And I think we’ve also though, been puzzling how do we help schools actually execute on that vision? And we’ve found someone that I think can start to shed some light on that. So I’m excited about this conversation, Danny. Danny Curtis Yeah, me, too. We wanted to bring on a guest today that is going to help us think through one approach to scaling up more career connected learning and helping districts overcome some of those challenges that they encounter when they do make the decision to move towards career connected learning. And so we are really delighted to have Amanda Kocon, the chief strategy and operations officer at Edmentum, a K12 online learning provider, join us here today. Amanda, welcome. Amanda Kocon Thank you. It is tremendous to be with you, Danny and Michael. Elevating CTE for Workforce Readiness Danny Curtis Amanda, as we mentioned up-front, we along with many others nationwide have been pushing for more career-connected learning in K–12. And as we’ll discuss you all at Edmentum, have a big announcement and have been doing a lot of work there. But before we dive into the work you’ve been doing, I want to start with the big picture “why.” In your view, what is driving this shift towards career readiness in K–12? Amanda Kocon It’s the question right now. Right. So if we think back to when Edmentum started this journey of really leaning into career connected learning for all, which is an important part of the story, we started paying attention to what was being provided to kids. So we are at our core a digital first curriculum company. We are a 60 year old plus ed tech company. We’re one of the oldest. We actually started our journey in workforce redevelopment and then focused many years later on the K12 space. But it’s always been sort of part of our DNA. We have always provided CTE courses and curriculum as part of our sort of comprehensive catalogs of offerings. And one of the things about almost four years ago now that we started talking about was what’s the sort of quality of offering that we have and how do we make sure that the same level of intention and rigor and learning design that is going into our core courses, so think your core four, your electives even, is also going into CTE. And so we started this build out in part to say...

Jamie Rosenberg, founder and executive chairman of ClassWallet, joins me to explore the evolving landscape of education savings accounts (ESAs) and the broader push toward education choice. Jamie shares the origin story of ClassWallet and discusses how the company is innovating digital wallet solutions that streamline the flow of public funds to families, educators, and nontraditional providers. The conversation sheds light on the challenges families and entrepreneurs face in navigating new ESA programs, the delicate balance between agency and accountability, and how states can design effective policies that empower both families and innovative education providers. Michael Horn I’m Michael Horn. You’re joining the show where we’re dedicated to creating a world in which all individuals can build their passions, fulfill their potential and live lives of purpose. And to help us think through that today, delighted to bring Jamie Rosenberg to the show. Jamie is the founder and executive chairman of ClassWallet, which we’re going to hear a lot more about the show. And Jamie and I were in a conversation a few months back with a bunch of others around this growing education savings account space with a bunch of insights that really struck me around the market and how to create a really robust one between demand and supply. So delighted to get into all of that today. Jamie, welcome to the Future of Education. Thank you so much for joining me. I appreciate you being here. Jamie Rosenberg It’s great being here, Michael. I appreciate the invite. Michael Horn Yeah, no, I’m delighted to learn from you. And before we get into some of the ways that the market is emerging, I, I want to start out with ClassWallet origin story, if you will. You all were founded in 2014, well before education savings accounts was sort of the movement I think that it’s becoming national at the moment. And so I’m just curious, like, what did the company start out as? What was the opportunity that you saw that you felt like ClassWallet can really fill this need in the country’s ecosystem? Jamie Rosenberg Sure. This is my second company. So to understand the formation of ClassWallet, let me just share with you how I. Michael Horn Yeah, origin story. Good. Jamie Rosenberg Yeah, of course. So my personal and professional mission has always been to try to get the dollars as close to children as possible. I started my career as a lawyer, at one point in time was mentoring a student at a nearby school in Miami for mentally and physically delayed pre kindergarten aged children. And during that experience, I really just had a life changing experience and really wanted to understand how I could help children in an educational environment as much as possible. So I started my first company in 1998, which was Adopt a Classroom, which was a crowdfunding platform for teachers as a way of trying to get philanthropic dollars as close to that child and in that learning environment as effectively as possible. So I grew that to be one of the larger education philanthropies in the country. By the time I left, I had raised and distributed about $25 million to teachers in 30% of U.S. public schools. Education Funding for Children’s Success Jamie Rosenberg The origin of ClassWallet germinates from there because in that journey I had developed a way of getting money in a compliant, impactful way as close to that child, and realized that I could help more children, more students by taking that technology and delivering it to the system, the school systems and state systems. And that was the impetus and catalyst to start ClassWallet in 2014. Michael Horn And so what were those initial customer relationships like what was the dollar flows funding from to and so forth? Jamie Rosenberg Yes. So the initial focus and hence the brand name was really helping LEAs and school districts get their funding down to the classroom more effectively. K12 is a trillion dollar budget, yet...

Cliff Maxwell joined me to announce the launch of Vocation, an AI-powered career coach. Built on decades of research, Cliff and I cofounded Vocation with Bob Moesta, my coauthor of the bestselling book Job Moves: 9 Steps for Making Progress in Your Career. Cliff and I discussed how Vocation now brings the process from Job Moves to you with the help of AI—so that you can identify what truly drives and energizes you at work and move beyond traditional resume-based or job title-focused career tools. Cliff shared some early stories of how Vocation has helped individuals. I’m excited that this resource can now be in all of your hands—and we look forward to your feedback. Links: https://www.joinvocation.com/ Michael Horn Excited to be with you, Cliff, as we talk about this new company we have created together, with Bob Moesta as well, called Vocation. It is based off the book Job Moves that we did. We had, you know, over a decade of research with a thousand-plus individuals who had made job changes and started coaching them and so forth. Ethan Bernstein’s class at the Harvard Business School, one of our coauthors pivotal in doing this, and then you sort of looked at this [book] and you’re like, hey, we could create a product out of this. And you were actually one of the early victims, if you will, of our research and tried out some of the work on you and I think it, I think it helped [you]. But before we start to introduce what Vocation is, maybe let’s tell your own personal story into this work and how you got to be here. We’ve been collaborators and friends for I think over a decade at this point. But why don’t you tell it through your own, your own words, your personal story into this. From Semiconductors to Education Innovation Cliff Maxwell Yeah, no, it’s so great to, to be connected again here and, and it’s so fun to be building something that, that has really, when I look back, has been a passion project all along but, but now is manifested in some really, you know, powerful tools and research that we can use. But yeah, my career is pretty winding. I started out in semiconductors actually. When you’re 18-years old and have to pick a major, you just go with what sounds interesting and, and I love math and science, studied electrical engineering, but really quickly started to find a lot of passion and energy in other things that, that frankly just didn’t offer. One of which was startups and, and innovation was doing some, some venture capital work in, in undergraduate and, and working with some entrepreneurs in that capacity and was dabbling with start of my own and then also education and teaching. I had never been obviously a K12 teacher, but had taught in various different capacities and really loved just being in classrooms and thinking about how to help people learn. And so when I was struggling with unfulfillment and trying to figure out what’s next, the first time, which was my first job out of undergrad, I stumbled upon your research with Clay Christensen and really just fell in love with the idea of, of how to innovate and make change in education and where that space was going, which is obviously much earlier on over a decade ago and so left engineering entirely, came to work with you as a researcher and product manager, building tools for educators and thinking about that space. And then it was during that time when Clay Christensen asked me to be his chief of staff and help manage everything that he was involved with, obviously with the Institute, but also his teaching efforts at Harvard Business School and his consulting work and was such a remarkable opportunity to meet so many wonderful people, so many, you know, insightful leaders from all over the world, and just exposed me to, frankly, what’s possible when you, when you think, you know, think big and try to help, help people at scale. And so that turned into business school and then I use that really to think about how to get back into some of the...

Kim Dow, executive director of the Khan Lab School and Khan Schools Network, and Elizabeth Dean, head of learning design at the Village School, joined me for this conversation. Together we explored the evolution of the Khan Lab School, as well as the Village School. We talked about how these schools are designing forward-thinking, mastery-based, and self-directed learning environments, the impact of AI on education, and why collaboration and knowledge-sharing across the network are vital for supporting new educational models. I was interested to hear about the Village School’s goals for expanding into high school and Elizabeth’s view on the importance of fostering authentic experiences and character development for students in the age of AI. Michael Horn Welcome to the Future of Education. I’m Michael Horn. You’re joining the show where we’re dedicated to creating a world in which all individuals can build their passions, fulfill their potential, and live lives of purpose. And to help us think through that today, I’m really excited for our two guests. We have Kim Dow. She’s the executive director of the Khan Lab School and the Khan Schools Network. So first, Kim, great to see you. Kim Dow Thanks for having us on your podcast. Michael Horn You bet. And then we’ve got Elizabeth Dean. She’s the head of learning design at the Village School and the first Kahn School Network partner on the east coast, which we’re going to hear more about today. But first, Elizabeth, thank you so much for joining as well. Elizabeth Dean Thanks for having us. Khan Lab School’s Growth Journey Michael Horn Yeah, you bet. So, Kim, let me start with you. Just Khan Lab School, I’ve been there probably a handful of times over the years, but if I’m being honest, it’s probably been like seven or eight years since I was last there. I was trying to do the math this morning as I was preparing for you to come on. And of course, Sal’s been on the show a few times, but still, I think the audience would love an update. Sort of like just Khan Lab School. We’ll get to the network in a moment. But just like, you know, the current state of it, how many locations do you have? How has it evolved over time? What’s the student body look like? Day in the life students, just give us a little bit of the color. Kim Dow Khan lab School is actually going into its 12th year this year, and I’ve been here for about eight years and it’s been quite a journey. And the school, as you know, is a Mastery based school. One of the earlier Mastery based schools, we’re located in Mountain View and we’ve also just expanded to Palo Alto. And so the school has grown over the past decade or so. And so now we have a campus for our lower school folks, and then we have a campus for our middle and our upper school students, which is based in Mountain View. In fact, our middle school this summer we just did some rehab and just moved into the old Khan Academy space. So we have moved from about, which the students love, and so the program has grown from the early days of about, you know, 20 students. I like to say it’s achieved escape velocity and we now have just tipped over 300 students, which is super exciting. So we often say that we have evolved from being scrappy to established, but not too established. And so we’ve really tried to retain those kind of startup, innovative roots and everything that, everything that we do. But it’s been, it’s been amazing to grow to, you know, a larger school. Michael Horn I love it. One more question, Kim, before I bring Elizabeth in. Just—300 students. I’ve always thought of Khan Lab School as a microschool. Do you, do you all still consider yourself as such at that size or like, how do you think? I mean, some of these classifications are sort of silly in some sense, right? It’s more about the educational experience. But I’m just sort of curious how you think about that. Kim Dow I think that we have evolved away from being a traditional...

Deborah Gist of Transcend and the XQ Institute and Victoria Andrews of Getting Smart joined me to talk about their report, “The Public Microschool Playbook: A New Actionable Guide for System Leaders,” a guide for public school districts interested in starting their own microschools. Our conversation explored the barriers districts face and highlighted solutions and real-world examples where microschools are already making a difference. My guests emphasized the importance of community engagement, starting small, and designing schools around the specific needs of students. For those who have read my book From Reopen to Reinvent and followed my work, it’s no secret that I think many more districts ought to be operating a range of microschools rather than continuing to have a one-size-fits-all mentality around serving students. It seems like a big opportunity to increase student engagement—and by having a bunch of purpose-built and differentiated microschools serving different groups of students yet offering them through the district, you can also imagine still having the best of a big community with other offerings like sports teams and the like that might be a draw. How to do this, however, has been a challenge for many districts, so I was glad when this guide came out. I hope our conversation helps more districts move forward accordingly. Michael Horn Welcome to the Future of Education. I’m Michael Horn. You’re joining the show where we’re dedicated to creating a world in which all individuals can build their passions, fulfill their potential and live lives of purpose. Something we’re not accomplishing today. But two folks that we get to welcome to our show today, being dedicated to this work for a very long time and doing incredible stuff. So thrilled to have two friends here, Deborah Gist and Victoria Andrews. Deborah, obviously now superintendent in residence at Transcend and XQ Institute, but of course, you were the superintendent of Oklahoma’s largest public school district in Tulsa, your hometown, for many years and of course, commissioner of Education in Rhode island and many other things. So first, good to see you Deb. Deborah Gist You too. Michael Horn And Victoria, you’re obviously a partner now focused on professional learning at Getting Smart, but you were the assistant director for an IB school, I think most recently before Getting Smart. So thank you so much for joining as well. Victoria Andrews Super happy to be here. Yeah. Can’t wait for the conversation. Michael Horn Well, we’re going to dive in because you all were part of Getting Smart Collective, Learner Centered Collaborative, and Transcend coming together to write, I think, a really important report, the “Public Microschool Playbook: A New Actionable Guide for System Leaders.” We’ll link to it, obviously in the show notes and up front, but it’s a really important playbook that encourages districts to get in the game, start creating microschools. And Deb, you’ve, I feel like actually I was in front of you a couple times from when From Reopen to Reinvent came out being like, districts should do microschools. And you’d be like, there’s not a playbook yet to get them to do it. So you guys have written that. Let’s, let’s dive in because I think it’s obviously incredibly critical. There’s a lot of interest in them. Overcoming Educational Innovation Barriers Michael Horn Let’s start with the barriers, though, because you all note in the report that we’re not seeing a lot of district run microschools. You list several of them actually helpfully, but there’s not a, there’s not as many as there should be. So maybe let me start with you, Deb. And then Victoria, you jump in, like, what do you see as the big impediments or barriers that’s holding this back? Deborah Gist Well, I mean, I think honestly one of the very first barriers is just awareness and just a recognition of the why and what’s possible and how they could go about doing it. And then...

Ethan Pollack from Jobs for the Future and Kevin Mumford, an economics professor at Purdue University, joined me to dive into Purdue’s innovative “Back a Boiler” Income Share Agreement (ISA) program. They defined what ISAs are, talked about how Purdue’s model aimed to make higher education more affordable and accessible, and discussed the findings from new research analyzing the program’s outcomes. Our conversation covered the program’s origins, regulatory challenges, its eventual pause, and what the data reveal about student outcomes, particularly regarding fairness, completion rates, and financial impacts for students from different backgrounds. One of my takeaways? Based on the outcomes, it’s a shame that the initial momentum behind ISAs in the mid-2010s has stalled. But maybe there’s some hope now on the horizon with better guardrails in place for a resurgence behind ISAs. Research Referenced: * Distribution of Returns to a College Income Share Agreement: Evidence from Administrative Data * Promising New Insights from Purdue University’s ISA Program Michael Horn Welcome to the Future of Education. I’m Michael Horn. And you’re joining the show where we’re dedicated to creating a world in which all individuals can build their passions, fulfill their potential and live lives of purpose. And part of that equation is thinking about how we pay for and afford what’s become a more and more costly higher education over time. So to help us learn about and think through some new research about what was a very interesting program to make higher education not just more affordable and accessible, but also focused on real value, in my view, our two individuals that we get to welcome today. First we have Ethan Pollack. He’s the senior director in the policy and advocacy practice at Jobs for the Future, or JFF as it’s commonly known, where he leads the Financing the Future initiative, which explores these new approaches to financing post secondary education. So, Ethan, great to see you. Ethan Pollack Great to be here. Michael Horn Yeah, you bet. And Kevin, we have Kevin Mumford, who’s an economics professor at Purdue University, also the director of the Research Center in Economics at Purdue. Kevin, great to see you and thanks for being here. Kevin Mumford Yeah, thank you. Happy to be here. Michael Horn Yeah. So we’re going to get into a bunch of things in a moment, but I wanted to sort of level set us start with the basics because we’re going to talk a lot about income share agreements today, ISAs, as they’re known, and we’re going to talk specifically about a program that was in effect at Purdue, the Back a Boiler ISA program, and a working paper that you published, Kevin, recently. But before we get into all that, I just want to make sure our audience is level set. We’re all on the same page. We know what we’re talking about. I know how I describe an ISA, and I see it as a pretty compelling alternative to a loan, at least on paper for a given individual. But Ethan, you’ve thought about this much more than I have. You probably have a much more concise answer. So in brief, tell us, what is an ISA? The Future of Education is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Income-Based Student Loan Alternative Ethan Pollack Sure. So an ISA is, I think, best defined in contrast to, to what is more the standard, in particular, the standard in the private loan space, where in that latter space you really have fixed payment loans. Right. You have, you know, much more kind of like a mortgage. You’re paying a fixed dollar amount over a period of time. You have to pay back at the end of the, the, the loan you need to pay back the principal and then the interest. And ISA is different in a number of respects, but the main respect is that it is income based. You are paying on the basis of how much you earn. So students are only making monthly payments if they...

In this episode, Danny Curtis interviewed Jonah Schenker, superintendent of Ulster BOCES in New York, to explore the launch of a groundbreaking new center for career and technical education at iPark87. The conversation dove into the innovative programming and community partnerships at the new center, the challenges of moving beyond traditional, industrial models of schooling, and the vital role of collaboration between educators, industry, and local organizations. Schenker also shed light on broader statewide reforms in New York around redefining student competencies, the importance of starting transformation with empathy and stakeholder input, and how these changes create new opportunities to equip students as designers of a better future. Danny Curtis Welcome to the Future of Education. I’m Danny Curtis and you’re joining the show where we are dedicated to creating a world in which all individuals can build their passions, fulfill their potential and live lives of purpose. And today to help us think through that, we welcome Dr. Jonah Schenker, superintendent of Ulster BOCES, which is a regional education services district in New York. And I’m really excited to have Jonah on today because he’s going to tell us about the innovative work that he is doing with his partner districts in New York, including the opening of a very new and very big center for career and technical education that’s playing an important role in a larger shift happening in New York towards rethinking student competencies. And so Jonah, thank you so much for joining us today. Dr. Jonah Schenker Awesome. I’m super glad to be here and actually recording from the new site as we were just chatting about. So I’m happy to be in space with you. Danny Curtis So cool. And we especially appreciate you carving out the time right now at time of recording. We are just leading into a new school year. So I’m sure this is a busy time for you. Dr. Jonah Schenker It’s always a busy time for schools as we think about opening but, but especially busy when you know, a new 140,000 square foot facility is, you know, just on, on the agenda as something to get opened as well. Danny Curtis So yeah, the big agenda item right there. Yeah, absolutely. Awesome. Well, I want to dig into that center in a second, but just to start, I’d love to hear about your journey to this work. What brought you to Ulster BOCES? Dr. Jonah Schenker Yeah, so you know, kind of the one minute overview, you know, I started my journey in school and I describe it as I was good at school, I knew how to do school. I don’t really recall, you know, what I was really getting at or, or absorbing. I recognize amazing teachers throughout that, but the learning style, the approach that that was always didn’t, didn’t feel right. And so I found myself gravitating towards shop class. I found myself gravitating towards clubs and extracurricular. But again I knew how to play the game. And so I got good grades, went off to college and did about two years and, and then left and spent my second two years of undergrad traveling around the world in an independent study. Finished my undergrad that way and that was really where kind of the aperture opened up that there are more than, there’s more than one way to kind of get at this thing we call learning in school. Fast forwarding. Started my career at a new school startup in Brooklyn. Spent about five years there teaching. Taught for another three or four years after I left the city in Dutchess County, New York and then began my journey at Ulster BOCES 16 years ago as an administrator, assistant principal, teacher, coach and have worked through the progression of leadership all here at Ulster BOCES. So building principal and director and interim directors of portions of our entity that handle tech and professional learning. Had the opportunity to become the deputy superintendent here and then our superintendent at the time retired and that was the moment at which I...

Danny Curtis joined me as we dove into some of the recent education headlines that caught our eyes to explore shifts in K–12 and higher ed. We started by discussing efforts by the Future of High School Network and the Carnegie Foundation to move away from seat-time requirements toward competency-based and work-based learning. Then we shifted to diving into one of my favorite topics—Texas’s multi-classroom teaching model from Public Impact and Opportunity Culture, which enables teachers to earn six-figure salaries without leaving the classroom, and its positive impact on both retaining veteran teachers and supporting newcomers. We then talked about the value of play-based learning, especially in early literacy, and questioned some of the labels and dichotomies that people often draw between different instructional philosophies. Sometimes there are similarities that people don’t see when you crawl underneath the proverbial hood. Rounding out the episode, we analyzed ChatGPT’s new “study mode” as a potential tool for student learning and discussed the complexities and opportunities AI brings to education. Publications Mentioned: “The Race to Redefine the High School Learning Experience Is On”, The 74 “How Some Texas Teachers are Earning Six Figures Without Leaving the Classroom”, The 74 “The Science of Reading and Play Go Hand-in-Hand. Schools Must Make It Happen.”, The 74 “Understanding Value of Learning Fuels ChatGPT’s Study Mode”, Inside Higher Ed Michael Horn Welcome to the Future of Education. Those tuning in live, we're trying something new today. We'll see how it goes. It's sort of a throwback to the past, but I'm Michael Horn. You're joining the show where we're dedicated to creating a world in which all individuals can build their passions, fulfill their potential and live lives of purpose. And to help us think through that today, thrilled to welcome back Danny Curtis who is head of all things digital for the work that I do and wears a number of other hats as well. Danny, good to see you. Danny Curtis It's great to see you too, Michael. Excited to talk some shop today. Michael Horn I'm looking forward to it as well. We'll keep an eye on viewer comments if we're able to. But I know that there's been basically, we text a fair bit. We're always in touch on different things. A few articles that have bubbled up that caught both of our eyes. I think it's fair to say that we thought let's do one of these, riff on it, catch up on some of the headlines that may be driving the school year ahead. No matter where you are at this point, schools either started or lurking for K12 students and colleges, those with traditional calendars are back to school. So this is like a hot topic right now. What's on your mind? Where should we, where should we go? I'm going to let you sort of run the show. Embracing Competency-Based Learning Danny Curtis Yeah. So the first headline to cover today is an article out of the 74: The race to Redefine Define the High School Learning Experience is On is the title. And this is one that covers the efforts of the Future of High School Network, which is a network of schools led by the Carnegie foundation for the Advancement of Teaching that are transforming how we do high school in America. And it's part of sort of a larger effort by the organization to move away from our education system based on seat time requirements towards more competency based approach. And so it gives a close up look at how this type of shift is allowing students in one Houston area district to engage in much richer work based learning through a partnership with a local hospital there. And so obviously some of your favorite themes in there. Michael, what did you take away from this story? Michael Horn Yeah, well, a few things. One, obviously we've had Tim Knowles on Class Disrupted right before the head of the Carnegie foundation and Diane's obviously on the board. So this is a group that we pay a lot of attention to....

Bill Hansen, CEO of Building Hope, and Raphael Gang, Director of K12 Education at Stand Together Trust, joined me to discuss the launch of a pioneering microloan fund specifically designed for microschool founders. We explored the goals, mechanics, and early learnings from the pilot program, which offers low-interest startup loans to help microschool entrepreneurs navigate financial and facility challenges in the early stages. Our conversation highlighted the critical need for business fundamentals and sustainability within these innovative educational ventures, the vital role of technical assistance, and the importance of building scalable, sector-wide support for nontraditional school models. Michael Horn Welcome to the future of Education. I'm Michael Horn. You're joining the show where we're dedicated to creating a world in which all individuals can build their passions, fulfill their potential, and live lives of purpose. And today we're going to have a conversation with two leaders behind a relatively new micro loan program that is designed to support what I'll call the supply side of microschools. But we'll unpack that, I suspect, a little bit as we get in this conversation. Before we do that, let me actually introduce our two guests. We have none other than Bill Hanson. He's the president and CEO of Building Hope. Bill, good to see you. Bill Hansen Good to see you, Michael. Thank you. Michael Horn Yeah, absolutely. And then we have Raphael Gang. Raphael is the director of K12 education at Stand Together Trust. Rafael, good to see you. Raphael Gang Thanks for having me. Microschool Program Partnership Michael Horn It's great. Yeah, no, you bet. So let's dive in with the mechanics, basics, just so people know what we're talking about. As I understand it, this is the first of its kind fund for microschool founders. It launched with $675,000, I believe, in funding from Stand Together Trust with support from the Beth and Ravenel Curry Foundation, I think. Is that right? And then it's powered by Building Hope and it's essentially a low-interest loan program. And so I'd love to get the basics of this, like what are the loans for, how much are we talking, what's the structure of those loans, how many applicants did you get, how many did you give out, and so forth. So maybe, Bill, why don't you lead us off and then Raphael, if anything to add, you can jump in on this. Bill Hansen Thank you, Michael, and just really appreciate the partnership with Raphael and with the Stand Together Trust. It's really been a pretty intense several months here getting this really, we're calling it a pilot or a demonstration program established to really help us learn a lot about this marketplace and the needs. And, you know, just with Building Hope's history in the public charter school movement, mostly, you know, the biggest barrier has always been both the financing and the facilities, and that is on steroids here with the microschool program. And so really the, you know, I really feel like we're in a learning process here to really, you know, help us validate those challenges that these entrepreneurs around the country are making and to really help solve the greatest needs that they have. And really the barriers to entry, which really have been, the logistics, the housing, if you will, and also just really the startup cost for them. Raphael Gang Yeah. Michael Horn And so let's talk about the loan itself. Raphael, why don't you jump in there? Yeah, yeah. Raphael Gang I mean, we were really excited. I mean, we spent two years looking for the right partner for this. So I would double down on Bill's, the appreciation for what Building Hope has done over the past six months or so, eight months, to build out the loan fund. And it's been a real process and you need a lot of trust and a lot of partnership to do something that's as ambitious and fast moving as this project has been. So, I mean, the loan fund, you know, we put out a...