Making Gay History | LGBTQ Oral Histories from the Archive

In this final episode, we reflect on why there are so few testimonies from LGBTQ people who survived the Nazi era and on the responsibility we have to honor the testimonies we do have in the face of the unfolding dark times here at home. Visit our episode webpage for additional resources, archival photos, and a transcript of the episode. For exclusive Making Gay History bonus content, join our Patreon community. ——— -Audio of the 1990 interview with Josef Kohout used by permission of QWIEN, the Center for Queer History in Vienna. -The Josef Kohout book excerpt is from Heinz Heger’s The Men with the Pink Triangle, Haymarket Books, Chicago, 2023. Used by permission of the publisher. Original German edition Die Männer mit dem rosa Winkel © 1972/2014 MERLIN VERLAG Andreas Meyer Verlags GmbH. & Co. KG, Gifkendorf, Germany. English translation by David Fernbach © 2004 MERLIN VERLAG Andreas Meyer Verlags GmbH. & Co. KG, Gifkendorf, Germany. -Audio of Dr. Walter Reich and Rabbi Sharon Kleinbaum from the October 10, 1996, ceremony courtesy of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Washington, D.C. -RG-50.030.0841, oral history interview with Gary H. Philipp, courtesy of the Jeff and Toby Herr Oral History Archive, United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Washington, D.C. For more information about the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, go here. ——— To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Charismatic German Jewish athlete Fredy Hirsch dedicated himself to inspiring and protecting children imprisoned by the Nazis. In this episode, survivors of Theresienstadt and Auschwitz whose lives were made tolerable, sometimes even joyful, thanks to his selfless efforts share their memories. Visit our episode webpage for additional resources, archival photos, and a transcript of the episode. For exclusive Making Gay History bonus content, join our Patreon community. ——— -The following interview segments are from the archive of the USC Shoah Foundation – The Institute for Visual History and Education: Dina Gottliebova-Babbitt, © 1998 USC Shoah Foundation Michael Honey, © 1997 USC Shoah Foundation Peter Mahrer, © 1998 USC Shoah Foundation Helga Ederer, © 1997 USC Shoah Foundation Yehudah Bakon, © 1996 USC Shoah Foundation Melitta Stein, © 1996 USC Shoah Foundation Eva Gross, © 1996 USC Shoah Foundation Chava Ben-Amos, © 1997 USC Shoah Foundation For more information about the USC Shoah Foundation, go here. -The following interview segments are from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Collection, Washington, D.C., courtesy of the Jeff and Toby Herr Foundation: RG-50.030.0488, oral history interview with Ursula Pawel RG-50.477.0497, oral history interview with John Steiner, gift of Jewish Family and Children's Services of San Francisco, the Peninsula, Marin and Sonoma Counties RG-50.106.0061, oral history interview with Rene Edgar Tressler For more information about the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, go here. -The Rudolf Vrba audio was drawn from footage created by Claude Lanzmann during the filming of Shoah. Used by permission of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and Yad Vashem, the Holocaust Martyrs and Heroes’ Remembrance Authority, Jerusalem. ——— To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Kenneth Roman was 15 when the Nazis rolled into his Polish hometown. After they liquidated the Jewish ghetto to which he and his family had been confined, he was sent to a series of forced labor camps and finally a concentration camp, where a sadistic block elder made him his “batman.” Visit our episode webpage for additional resources, archival photos, and a transcript of the episode. For exclusive Making Gay History bonus content, join our Patreon community. ——— The interview with Kenneth Roman is from the archive of the USC Shoah Foundation – The Institute for Visual History and Education, © 1998 USC Shoah Foundation. For more information about the USC Shoah Foundation, go here. ——— To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

German Jewish survivor Margot Heuman attributed her survival of the Nazi concentration camps to her friendship with another teenage girl. It wasn’t until the end of her life that she confided in lesbian historian Anna Hájková about the intimate nature of the friendship. Visit our episode webpage for additional resources, archival photos, and a transcript of the episode. For exclusive Making Gay History bonus content, join our Patreon community. ——— The interview with Margot Heuman is from the archive of the USC Shoah Foundation – The Institute for Visual History and Education, © 1994 USC Shoah Foundation. For more information about the USC Shoah Foundation, go here. ——— To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Lucy Salani was assigned male at birth, so when she came of age she was conscripted into the Italian army. She soon deserted—the first of several daring escapes that eventually landed her in Dachau. She’s one of the only trans people to testify about their experiences in Nazi concentration camps. Visit our episode webpage for additional resources, archival photos, and a transcript of the episode. For exclusive Making Gay History bonus content, join our Patreon community. ——— Lucy Salani interview footage courtesy of Matteo Botrugno and Daniele Coluccini, directors of the 2021 documentary C'è un soffio di vita soltanto (A Breath of Life). The film was produced and released in Italy by Blue Mirror and Kimerafilm and distributed internationally by True Colours. ——— To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

After the 1942 deportation of his boyfriend, 19-year-old Jewish Berliner Gad Beck vowed to help others escape the same fate. He became a prominent resistance member and used his resourcefulness, sexual barter, and chutzpah to save fellow Jews from the Nazi murder machine. Visit our episode webpage for additional resources, archival photos, and a transcript of the episode. For exclusive Making Gay History bonus content, join our Patreon community. ——— RG-50.030.0361, oral history interview with Gad Beck, courtesy of the Jeff and Toby Herr Oral History Archive, United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Washington, D.C. For more information about the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, go here. ——— To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When the Nazis invaded the Netherlands in 1940, 36-year-old conductor Frieda Belinfante disbanded her orchestra and dedicated herself to helping others. She forged IDs to save Jews from deportation and joined a resistance group that carried out a daring act of sabotage. Visit our episode webpage for additional resources, archival photos, and a transcript of the episode. For exclusive Making Gay History bonus content, join our Patreon community. ——— RG-50.030.0019, oral history interview with Frieda Belinfante, courtesy of the Jeff and Toby Herr Oral History Archive, United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Washington, D.C. For more information about the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, go here. ——— To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In 1939, French teenager Pierre Seel had his watch stolen at a cruising spot in his hometown. When he reported the crime to the police, he was placed on a list of suspected homosexuals. Two years later, with the city now under Nazi occupation, he was summoned by the Gestapo. A note about language: the person featured in this episode refers to Roma people by the now offensive term gypsies. To stay true to the original French testimony, we’ve not updated that term in our voiceover translation. Visit our episode webpage for additional resources, archival photos, and a transcript of the episode. For exclusive Making Gay History bonus content, join our Patreon community. ——— -The first interview with Pierre Seel, conducted in 1993 by Daniel Mermet, is provided courtesy of Là-bas si j'y suis. -The second interview with Pierre Seel, conducted by Laurent Aknin, is from the archive of the USC Shoah Foundation – The Institute for Visual History and Education, © 1996 USC Shoah Foundation. For more information about the USC Shoah Foundation, go here. ——— To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Polish teenager Stefan Kosinski was beaten, tortured, and sent to prison. His crime? He fell in love with a Viennese soldier serving in the German army. When the soldier was sent to the Eastern Front, Stefan sent him a love letter, which was intercepted by the Nazis. Visit our episode webpage for additional resources, archival photos, and a transcript of the episode. For exclusive Making Gay History bonus content, join our Patreon community. ——— RG-50.030.0355, oral history interview with Teofil (Stefan) Kosinski, courtesy of the Jeff and Toby Herr Oral History Archive, United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Washington, D.C. For more information about the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, go here. ——— To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In our second introductory episode, we focus on life in the Nazi concentration camps and offer a glimpse into the experiences of LGBTQ people in occupied countries during WWII as we continue to set the context for the eight profile episodes to follow. Visit our episode webpage for additional resources, archival photos, and a transcript of the episode. For exclusive Making Gay History bonus content, join our Patreon community. ——— -The following interview segments are from the archive of the USC Shoah Foundation – The Institute for Visual History and Education: Walter Schwarze, © 1997 USC Shoah Foundation Kitty Fischer, © 1995 USC Shoah Foundation For more information about the USC Shoah Foundation, go here. -The Leo Classen excerpt is taken from “Die Dornenkrone: Ein Tatsachenbericht aus der Strafkompanie Sachsenhausen” (“The Crown of Thorns: A Factual Report from the Sachsenhausen Penal Company”), Humanitas: Monatsschrift für Menschlichkeit und Kultur 2, no. 2 (1954): 59-60. -Audio of the 1990 interview with Josef Kohout used by permission of QWIEN, the Center for Queer History in Vienna. -The Josef Kohout book excerpts are from Heinz Heger’s The Men with the Pink Triangle, Haymarket Books, Chicago, 2023. Used by permission of the publisher. Original German edition Die Männer mit dem rosa Winkel © 1972/2014 MERLIN VERLAG Andreas Meyer Verlags GmbH. & Co. KG, Gifkendorf, Germany. English translation by David Fernbach © 2004 MERLIN VERLAG Andreas Meyer Verlags GmbH. & Co. KG, Gifkendorf, Germany. -The following interview segments are courtesy of the Jeff and Toby Herr Oral History Archive, United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Washington, D.C.: RG-50.578.0001, oral history interview with Gerald B. Rosenstein RG-50.030.0270, oral history interview with Rose Szywic Warner RG-50.030.0037, oral history interview with Tiemon Hofman For more information about the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, go here. -Arthur Haulot audio courtesy of the Fortunoff Video Archive for Holocaust Testimonies, Yale University Library. -The Ovida Delect excerpt is from her memoir La vocation d'être femme (The Vocation to Be a Woman). Copyright © Éditions L'Harmattan, 1996. Used by permission of Éditions L'Harmattan. -The Ruth Maier excerpts are from Ruth Maier’s Diary by Ruth Maier. Copyright © Gyldendal Norsk Forlag AS, 2007. English translation copyright © Jamie Bulloch, 2009. Used by permission of The Random House Group Limited. ——— To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this first of two introductory episodes, hear how the walls closed in on LGBTQ people after Hitler came to power through the recorded and written memories of multiple queer people who witnessed or fell victim to the Nazis’ persecution. Visit our episode webpage for additional resources, archival photos, and a transcript of the episode. For exclusive Making Gay History bonus content, join our Patreon community. ——— -The interview segment of Bertram Schaffner is from the archive of the USC Shoah Foundation – The Institute for Visual History and Education, © 1998 USC Shoah Foundation. For more information about the USC Shoah Foundation, go here. -The Eric Langer letter is an excerpt from The Pink Triangle by Richard Plant. Copyright © 1986 by Richard Plant. Used by permission of Henry Holt and Company. All Rights Reserved. -Michael Rittermann audio from the 1989 documentary Desire: Sexuality in Germany 1910-1945 (dir. Stuart Marshall) used by permission of Maya Vision International. -RG-50.030.0445, oral history interview with Rolf Hirschberg, courtesy of the Jeff and Toby Herr Oral History Archive, United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Washington, D.C. For more information about the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, go here. -The unpublished Liddy Bacroff writings reside at the Staatsarchiv der Freien und Hansestadt Hamburg, 242-4 Nr. 339. ——— To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Host Eric Marcus welcomes listeners to MGH’s “Nazi Era” series by going back in time to 1980 and a darkened Broadway theater where his interest in LGBTQ Holocaust history was kindled. Join Eric as we embark on a 12-episode journey and honor Holocaust Remembrance Day. Visit our episode webpage for a transcript of the episode. For exclusive Making Gay History bonus content, join our Patreon community. ——— -1993 interview with Pierre Seel courtesy of Là-Bas Si J'y Suis. -RG-50.030.0019, oral history interview with Frieda Belinfante, courtesy of the Jeff and Toby Herr Oral History Archive, United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Washington, D.C. For more information about the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, go here. -Lucy Salani footage courtesy of Matteo Botrugno and Daniele Coluccini, directors of C'è un soffio di vita soltanto (2021), produced by Blue Mirror and Kimerafilm, distributed by True Colours. ——— To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Frank Kameny lived by three rules: have absolute confidence in your beliefs; fight for what’s right; never, ever give up. Let them be a battle cry in these dark times. Visit MGH’s webpage for the original 2016 episode featuring Frank Kameny for background information, archival photos, and other resources, as well as the episode’s transcript. ——— To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In 1983 Evan Wolfson wrote a law school thesis that asserted that gay people had a constitutional right to marry. Thirty-two years later, the U.S. Supreme Court affirmed as much. In this guest episode from But We Loved, get to know the man behind one of the biggest victories in the history of the LGBTQ civil rights movement. Learn more about Evan Wolfson and the Freedom to Marry campaign here. Find more episodes of But We Loved, a production of iHeartPodcasts and the Outspoken Podcast Network, here or on your favorite podcast platform. ——— To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Like so many other acts of LGBTQ resistance, the 1969 Stonewall riots could have become a footnote in history. But the protests and organizing that followed launched a new phase in the fight for LGBTQ rights. Hear how anger found its voice and how joy propelled the first Pride marches. First aired June 20, 2019. Visit our episode webpage for background information, archival photos, and other resources, as well as the episode’s transcript. To hear more from Craig Rodwell, go here. And listen to Barbara Gittings and Kay Lahusen here as they discuss how homophile activists fared in the heady days of post-Stonewall organizing. For exclusive Making Gay History bonus content, join our Patreon community. ——— To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Stonewall uprising began in the early morning hours of June 28, 1969. Revisit that moment, and the hours and days that followed, with voices from the Making Gay History archive. Relive in vivid detail the dawning of a new chapter in the fight for LGBTQ rights. First aired June 13, 2019. Visit our episode webpage for background information, archival photos, and other resources, as well the episode’s transcript. To hear more of Marsha P. Johnson and Randy Wicker’s conversation about Stonewall, go here. And listen to Morty Manford’s account of the riots here. For exclusive Making Gay History bonus content, join our Patreon community. ——— To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Conflict has context. In this first episode of Making Gay History’s Stonewall season, we hear stories from the pre-Stonewall struggle for LGBTQ rights. We travel back in time to the turbulent 1960s and take you to the tinderbox that was Greenwich Village on the eve of an uprising. First aired June 6, 2019. Visit our episode webpage for background information, archival photos, and other resources, as well as the episode’s transcript. For exclusive Making Gay History bonus content, join our Patreon community. ——— To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Can historical and emotional truth coexist? For the 55th anniversary of the uprising, Eric and fellow LGBTQ history expert Ken Lustbader talk to Stonewall National Monument visitors and let a few myths slip by to uncover Stonewall’s moving resonance as a symbol of LGBTQ liberation and joy. This episode is a co-production of Making Gay History and the NYC LGBT Historic Sites Project, in partnership with the National Park Service. Visit our episode webpage for a transcript of the episode. For exclusive Making Gay History bonus content, join our Patreon community. ——— To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

As a bookish lesbian growing up in working-class England, June Thomas developed an early love of bookstores. After moving to the U.S. in the 1980s, she found community in the feminist bookstores of the era, as she recounts in A Place of Our Own: Six Spaces That Shaped Queer Women's Culture. Visit our episode webpage for a transcript of the episode. For exclusive Making Gay History bonus content, join our Patreon community. Episode Art: The Old Wives’ Tales Collective, San Francisco, 1982: Carol Seajay, Pell, Sherry Thomas, Tiana Arruda, and Kit Quan. © 1982 JEB (Joan E. Biren). ——— To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Valerie Reyes-Jimenez called it “The Monster.” That’s how some people described HIV and AIDS in the 1980s. Valerie thinks as many as 75 people from her block on New York City’s Lower East Side died. They were succumbing to an illness that was not recognized as the same virus that was killing young, white, gay men just across town in the West Village. At the same time, in Washington, D.C., Gil Gerald, a Black LGBTQ+ activist, saw his own friends and colleagues begin to disappear, dying out of sight and largely ignored by the wider world. In this guest episode from WNYC Studios’ new Blindspot series, hear how HIV and AIDS was misunderstood from the start—and how this would shape the reactions of governments, the medical establishment, and numerous communities for years to come. Listen and subscribe to the rest of the series here. ——— To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices