How To Train Your Dog With Love + Science - Dog Training with Annie Grossman + Anamarie Johnson PhD (Formerly known as School For The Dogs Podcast)

In this episode, recorded on November 6th, I recap some of the weird moments having to do with pets and other animals in the run up to the election, from Peanut the Squirrel to Kristi Noem shooting her puppy, several stories about people eating dogs and beyond. But the apex of the weirdness came to me in in a speech where Carlson Tucker starts off talking about how American’s are too nice to dogs, and then devolves into talking about how those on the left need to be, well… spanked. As a positive reinforcement trainer, I cannot help but reflect on the Trump’s win through the lens of animal behavior, as I’ve come to understanding it through working with dogs. This leads me to wonder what would happen if political governance wasn’t rooted in punishment? Is it possible that helping people to better understanding and applying positive reinforcement in dog training could have broader implications for society? Maybe? Maybe. Maybe if we all spent more time training, we’d at least spend less time doomscrolling… This episode includes parts from the last two chapters of my new book, How To Train Your Dog With Love + Science, one about studies that have been done on spanking kids and the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior’s recommendations on using punishment with dogs, and the other on BF Skinner’s suggestion for change people’s behavior on a societal level without force. An audiobook version of the book has just been released from Tantor Press, narrated by Eunice Wong. If you’d like a review copy of the audiobook, I have a handful of download codes I can share to the first few people who email me to ask! Put audiobook in the subject. Ruff timeline: 00:00 Reflecting on the Election Through a Behavioral Lens 00:52 Donald Trump's Childhood and Authoritarianism 02:01 Weird Moments in the Presidential Campaign Note: I edited both the Carlson and Noem clips here for length but without changing the meaning. I felt that playing the clips in full was just too inhumane. 05:54 Tucker Carlson's “Daddy’s Home” Speech 07:05 The Role of Punishment in Behavior 08:19 Positive Reinforcement in Dog Training 11:28 The Importance of Good Dog Trainers 13:02 Book Excerpt Links: Boston Globe article I wrote about Romney and his dog in 2012 Mary Trump’s Too Much and Never Enough Youtube: Dog Bonking Audio montage clips: Trump “Eating The Dogs” RFK Jr whale incident RFK Jr denies eating dog RFK Jr bear cub story Kristi Noem reads from her book JD Vance on peanut the squirrel JD Vance on cat ladies Tucker Carlsons’s Georgia Speech This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit dogtraining.substack.com

Everything seems crazy and awful right now in the world and then, on top of it all, people are… putting costumes on dogs. Anamarie and I delve into the weirdness and ethics of dressing up dogs. Additionally, we talk about Brian Hare and Vanessa Wood’s Atlantic article about a third wive of domestication in dogs, and the Monks of New Skete’s feature in the Associated Press. Ultimately, my 5-year-old sums up the spirit of the episode by sharing her own impromptu thoughts on how we should consider our dogs comfort above all else. Notes: Join me this Saturday 11/2 at The Museum Of The Dog where I will be interviewed by Alex Pasternack of Fast Company, and signing books and Brian Hare and Vanessa Woods in the Atlantic The Monks of New Skete in the AP Genealogy of Obedience by Justyna Wlodarczyk The Ewok Costume Time stamps: 00:00 Halloween cnversations with a three year old 00:49 Upcoming Events and Announcements 02:32 Dog Halloween Parade Concerns 06:57 Dog Training Philosophies and Stereotypes 12:00 Service Dogs and Domestication 16:00 The Monks of New Skete in the news 31:31 Halloween conversations with a five year old This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit dogtraining.substack.com

Anamarie and I recorded this episode separately because we had different things we wanted to communicate in a format that wasn't really right for conversation. Me first: What if you're someone who has strong feelings about putting dogs in shock collars and... one of your friends publishes a paper on research she did that involved putting shock collars on dogs? What if that person is your podcast host? Hi, I'm Annie, and this is my life. The day after I publish a book that is essentially a paean to Positive Reinforcement dog training rooted in science and research, a major journal publishes a paper (rooted in science and research!) that says that using a shock collar may be more effective when teaching a dog to stop chasing than reward-based training would be in the same period of time. Anamarie was one of the authors. Do you hop on the bandwagon and hate on this person? Do you yell at the angry mob -- which contains many of your colleagues -- to stop hating on her because she is someone you respect and love? Do you hit your desk on the head several times because you know that 99.9 percent of US dog owners don't care about the studies or the ethics and will never consult with experts but are going to use these things anyway because THEY'RE COMPLETELY LEGAL? Do you ... buy a shock collar? Join me as I confirm all my worst fears during a series of phone calls with shock collar retailers. In the 2nd part of the episode, Anamarie responds to attacks on the study that has been the source of so much criticism in the Positive Reinforcement dog training community over the last few weeks. You can read the study here: More: ⁠GET MY BOOK! Upload a receipt and I'll send you a clicker and a sticker. ⁠ ⁠Testing dog shock collars on young humans ⁠Youtube compilation by me (from 2011) Add link to study https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/14/18/2632 Add link to the study about no one using trainers https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/14/9/1310 Other links? How big of a money making market the ecollar industry is: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dog-shock-collar-market-growth-trends-forecast This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit dogtraining.substack.com

Meet Anamarie Johnson! She was one of my first hires at School For The Dogs nearly a decade ago. She recently got her PhD, and she'd coming on to join me as a co-host! Me= Annie Grossman, dog trainer, business owner, human. I started this podcast in 2018. I had to take a little time off, mostly because... I was working on a book! It comes out next week! Learn more at SchoolForTheDogs.com/book. It's called How To Train Your Dog With Love + Science and much of it stems from conversations that started on this podcast. In this episode, we talked about some of the crazy drama that's been going on, most of it having to do with positive-reinforcement pros and those trainers are positive-reinforcement adjacent going at each other online. Characters include Michael Shikashio, Zak George, Ivan Balabanov, Behavior Vets, Eileen Anderson, and Jo-Rosie Haffenden, among others. Anamarie and I come to the conclusion that a lot of the pros don't know how to interpret science, and are basically just talking to each other since the majority of dog owners have no idea that dog training has anything to do with science to begin with. I recently renamed the podcast to match the book's title: How To Train Your Dog With Love + Science. I think it is fitting for the new format because Anamarie can be the science and I can be... the love? Or something. Along with the new title came an amazing new theme song, by Sam Swinnerton, who recently KILLED IT on The Tonight Show! See here. Also: I'm hosting a mini-conference on Sept. 7 at School For The Dogs in NYC (and also online). Registration closes Sept. 4. Learn more at ShoolForTheDogs.com/event. See you next week! x Annie

Annie reads a post from Denise Fenzi's page that sparked some interesting comments on labels in the world of dog training. Some dog trainers are considerate about the use of some punishment in training and others work to avoid it at all costs. And then there are trainers who simply don't know what they're doing at all. Like... Dog Daddy. He calls himself "balanced" but no educated pro trainer would give him that label. Maybe the real problem is that to non-professionals, what this Insta-celeb doing is all they know about dog training. TOPICS DISCUSSED: - Frustrations with the dog training industry - Divide between different training methods - The problem of most people's lack of understanding of dog body language - The weirdness of a spectacle-like approach to dog training - Importance of focusing on the dog's well-being - Potential for more animal training entertainment that actually shows off the magic of positive reinforcements KEY TAKEAWAYS: - Dog training should focus on the well-being and training effectiveness of dogs rather than creating a spectacle. - Understanding dog body language is crucial for preventing dog bites and improving communication with dogs. - The divide between different training methods should be approached with open dialogue and growth in mind. - Strength-based training can be effective in both academic and dog training settings. - The well-being and safety of dogs and the public should be the priority in dog training. REFERENCES: - Denise Fenzi's Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/denise.fenzi GIVEAWAY: This month's giveaway: Dog Listener hat. Enter to win at http://schoolforthedogs.com/pod Get your own hat https://storeforthedogs.com/products/dog-listner-hat ⁠Dog Daddy, Part 1: The face of modern "bad" dog training⁠ https://spotifyanchor-web.app.link/e/IZ8rDgtkWEb ⁠Dog Daddy, Part 2: Zak George calls out animal abuse masquerading as dog training⁠ https://spotifyanchor-web.app.link/e/pqBs1htkWEb ⁠Annie sees Dog Daddy live. Also: Get to know Erin Whelan (2020 episode rebroadcast)⁠ https://spotifyanchor-web.app.link/e/0jWG1ftkWEb

Today I caught up with Zak George to hear the latest about his public feud with Dog Daddy. See Dog Daddy's petition against Zak George at Change.org https://www.change.org/p/stop-zak-george?source_location=search Dog Daddy, Part 1: The face of modern "bad" dog training https://spotifyanchor-web.app.link/e/IZ8rDgtkWEb Dog Daddy, Part 2: Zak George calls out animal abuse masquerading as dog training https://spotifyanchor-web.app.link/e/pqBs1htkWEb Annie sees Dog Daddy live. Also: Get to know Erin Whelan (2020 episode rebroadcast) https://spotifyanchor-web.app.link/e/0jWG1ftkWEb

Annie went to see Dog Daddy live in New Jersey this weekend and reports back about the odd experience of being in a room where what looked to her like animal abuse seemed didn't seem to bother anyone else. The episode then includes a rebroadcast of a 2020 interview Annie did with School For The Dogs trainer Erin Whelan. Erin was a professional French Horn Player. Then she adopted a beagle mix named Oliver and enrolled him in Puppy Kindergarten at School For The Dogs. Then she did the School For The Dogs Professional Program. Now, she is a trainer and manager at School For The Dogs. She and Annie discuss switching careers, what it means to teach dogs virtually, human body language, and training as a kind of benevolent con game -- not like Dog Daddy's con! Dog Daddy Part 1 -- all about DD Dog Daddy Part 2 -- a conversation w/ Zak George Enter November Giveaway at http://schoolforthedogs.com/pod Apply to the SFTD Professional course at http://schoolforthedogs.com/pro Sign up to hear about upcoming sales ate http://schoolforthedogs.com/twelve Get a Mendota leash that doesn't say "Tie Me Up Daddy" at http://schoolforthedogs.com/mendota

Zak George, one of the most influential dog trainers of the 21st century, has been using his large virtual platform to bring attention to the problematic methods being used by the Internet-famous dog trainer known as Dog Daddy. Zak and Annie discuss the origins of this work, his efforts to get his followers to picket Dog Daddy's events, and more. Annie also talks about why the conversation about whether or not it is advisable to use force in dog training feels especially important right now. Find Zak George on Instagram or Youtube: http://instagram.com/zakgeorge http://youtube.com/zakgeorge November giveaway: Enter to win a Hot Dog Trainer mug at http://schoolforthedogs.com/pod Listen to previous episodes about Dog Daddy: The SFTD origin story in "How We Got By" (Plus: Enter to win a "Hot Dog Trainer" Mug) https://rebrand.ly/dpmdhwn Dog Daddy, Part 1: The face of modern "bad" dog training https://rebrand.ly/ulbq7zi Karen Pryor's daughter Gale's article about her mother's dementia My scientist mother has recorded how dementia affects her brain https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/10/11/magazine/her-dementia-in-her-words/ Annie is on Instagram at @annie.grossman Like this podcast? Subscribe! Rate! Woof!

Annie reads from How We Got By, a new book by Shaina Feinberg & Julia Rothman which includes a chapter about how School For The Dogs got started. She also gives an update on the bizarre/sad Dog Daddy world tour, and shares how excited she got when she first read about a man being called "the hot dog trainer." Who was the handsome fella? November giveaway: Enter to win a "Hot Dog Trainer" mug this month at http://schoolforthedogs.com/pod Apply to the SFTD Professional Course through Nov. 30th. http://schoolforthedogs.com/pro Get How We Got By on Amazon: https://rebrand.ly/hwgb Hot Dog Train Instagram: @annie.grossman @schoolforthedogs

Annie talks about why she is generally against costumes for dogs and suggests some alternatives to dressing up your dog on Halloween. She also discusses some feedback she got about last week’s episode, which featured an interview with the lawyer representing the woman who was mauled by Cesar Millan’s dog. Lastly, she shares two anecdotes: one about how she is using a Buy Nothing group on Facebook to get neighbors to help her train her dog (unbeknownst to them) and the other about how her attempt to use negative reinforcement to get her daughter to brush her teeth ultimately back fired (in a sort of hilarious way). Like this episode? Leave a review on iTunes! Follow us on Instagram: @schoolforthedogs @annie.grossman Episode with the lawyer suing Cesar Milan: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/dogs/episodes/Suing-Cesar-Meet-the-lawyer-of-teen-mauled-by-Dog-Whisperers-dog--And-How-to-train-2-dogs-at-once-e18r9eb

A trainer who goes by the name "Dog Daddy" has millions followers and has recently incited arguments on social media: His critics accuse him of harming dogs and calling it training; his fans accuse his detractors of being sissies who can’t face reality. These two vociferous groups are facing off online and at his in-person events around the world. Annie puts the saga into the context of a larger (and longer) story about the use of force and coercion in dog training, and gives a nuanced explanation of what defines "balanced" training and what defines trainers that takes a "LIMA" approach. She also investigates Dog Daddy’s background and unconvers some surprising information about how he initially positioned himself to potential clients. PLUS: The podcast has a new jingle, to go with its... new name! School For The Dogs Professional Course is taking applications! Apply at http://schoolforthedogs.com/pro LIMA guidelines and the Hierarchy of Procedures for Humane and Effective Practice: https://www.ccpdt.org/about-us/least-intrusive-minimally-aversive-lima-effective-behavior-intervention-policy/ Judge Rottenberg center: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/15/us/electric-shock-school.html Dog Daddy Archive.org page: https://web.archive.org/web/20141108115514/http://gskennels.com/about-us/ Brandon McMillan’s training maraca: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kiFZ6Mikpo Zak George on Instagram: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp6GpMnZHxg&t=45s Cesar Millan’s “Shh”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp6GpMnZHxg&t=45s Jeff Gelman on how Positive Reinforcement ruined his life: https://www.solidk9training.com/sk9-blog/2016/02/16/positive-reinforcement-training-resulted-in-my-becoming-divorced-drunk-and-suicidal Facebook Page: The Truth About Griffin Shepherds https://www.facebook.com/TheTruthAboutGrffinShepherds

Sometimes you stumble on something amazing and free. Maybe that's how you feel about this podcast? That's how Annie felt this week when her dream office chair appeared outside her door... You can buy good dog training (or great chairs). That's what School For The Dogs sells. But you can also get a lot of valuable dog training advice for nothing, if you're lucky. You, dear listener, just got lucky. Visit our new Online Campus to take advantage of a huge amount of free and low cost resource for dog owners. Join us for free Office Hours with a trainer every Thursday at 6PM ET. http://sftd.online/events Podcast exclusive: Get one month of full access to all our on-demand offerings, plus 12 Office Hours with a trainer per month. Listen to the episode for the link! http://online.schoolforthedogs.com http://schoolforthedogs.com/ http://storeforthedogs.com

Annie has been on podcast-hiatus working on her book, but... she's back! Join her for a conversation with longtime friend of the podcast, British pet marketing guru Dom Hodgson, who is coming to New York City to lead a seminar at School For The Dogs later this month. Dom shares his thoughts on the current state of the pet service industry and gives some really excellent advice on how to turn happy customers into brand cheerleaders. Sign up for Dom's April 23rd seminar Grow Your Pet Business FAST https://www.petbusinessmarketing.com/nyc See the proposed School For The Dogs "Good Dog Training Pledge" at http://schoolforthedogs.com/pledge

SFTD Podcast is still on hiatus, but Annie is popped on to say "Hi" and tell a quick story about her daughter. Join Annie in the Online Campus!

Annie was recently browsing her local dog Facebook group, when she came across a post by a woman named Michaelle who was reaching out for training help with her reactive foster dog. Several of the replies recommended a trainer in the area who was not professionally certified, and Michaelle posted that she had decided to work with. When Annie, perhaps a little too aggressively, responded with critical questions about this trainer, Michaelle called her out on it. By way of apology, Annie offered to coach her through some of the issues she was dealing with, gratis. They discuss her foster dog Baozi's reactivity in the home, including his, growling, barking, sometimes sudden biting and lunging, his many triggers, and health issues that may be affecting his behavior. Rather than focusing on quick fixes for these unwanted behaviors, Annie approaches the issue by suggesting ways to get to the root cause for lasting and mutually beneficial behavior change. Note: School For The Dogs Podcast is going on hiatus for a few months! But you can join Annie inside the new School For The Dogs Online Campus. Join at http://schoolforthedogs.com/podcastfan and get one month free. Post in the Online Campus that you're a Podcast Fan and get free access to School For The Dogs' Body Language Basics on-demand course, a $47 value. Related: How to train "Touch": https://anchor.fm/dogs/episodes/How-to-train-your-dog-to-touch-your-hand-and-why-it-is-such-an-important-thing-to-master-e1e9i86/a-a2gg9qd How to train "Look": https://anchor.fm/dashboard/episode/e1jelng Body Language Basics: https://storeforthedogs.com/collections/online-courses/products/750634

Texas-based trainer Beth Berkobien has a master's degree in animal behavior, specializes in dog aggression, and offers virtual training sessions internationally. She was raised on a farm with field-trial Labradors and grew up around punishment-based dog training using aversives. After being encouraged by a trainer to use an e-collar on her dog that caused him to completely shut down, she moved away from aversives. Many years later, she works primarily with rehabilitating rescue dogs. She joins Annie on this episode to discuss her journey as a dog trainer. Together they also listen to “bonker”-based dog trainer Jeff Gellman’s rant on dog trainers who prefer to use methods that don’t cause their dogs (and potentially others) additional harm. They also discuss an apparent societal tendency to blame people for their failures, and of balanced trainers to blame clients when their training protocols are ineffective. Annie finishes by reading some extreme training methods from a dog training book from the 1970's: The Koehler Method of Dog Training by William Koehler. Links: Learn more about Beth Berkobien at RehabYourRescue.com and on Instagram @rehabyourrescue Just When You Thought the Barbara Woodhouse Days Were Over | Animal Rights & Wrongs (animalrightsandwrongs.uk) Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor The Companion Species Manifesto: Dogs, People, and Significant Otherness by Donna Haraway Walden Two by BF Skinner Related episode: Episode 44 | Are you talking to your socks? Marie Kondo, Cesar Millan & training humans with snake oil --- Partial Transcript: Annie: Hello, Beth. Thank you for being here. Maybe you can just go ahead and introduce yourself ‘cause I'm worried I'm gonna say your last name wrong. And tell me the name of your business and where you're located. Beth Berkobien: Absolutely. Yeah, everybody worries about saying my last name. I am Beth Berkobien of Rehab Your Rescue. We're located in Dallas, Texas, but I do sessions virtually all over the world. I have some clients in South Africa, in London, in Seattle, so we are very accessible... Full Transcript at SchoolForTheDogs.com/Podcast

Anamarie Johnson, a former School For The Dogs trainer and current PhD candidate in Behavioral Neuroscience and Comparative Psychology at Arizona State University, returns to the podcast to discuss her research on language used by dog trainers on their websites. In addition to discussing some of her findings (like what it means when a trainer talks about "nature" and some of the stranger New Age-y language used by aversive and R+ trainers alike), they talk about what's she's learned from working in shelters and more. Sign up for Anamarie's free presentation about her paper, August 8th at 3PM ET: http://schoolforthedogs.com/words Read the paper abstract: Training Dogs with Science or with Nature? An Exploration of Trainers’ Word Use, Gender, and Certification Across Dog-Training Methods https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/08927936.2022.2062869 Anamarie's previous visit to the podcast in 2018: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/lets-talk-about-pavlov-with-dog-trainer-anamarie-johnson/id1355439730?i=1000411989525 Episode on cues and commands: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bonus-quick-thought-about-cues-commands-as-they-relate/id1355439730?i=1000515007001

Hang out with any Positive Reinforcement dog trainer and they're bound to have a shirt in their wardrobe from the online store Woof Cultr: An apparel company that has a very niche market: Force-free trainers. Woof Cultr is the brainchild of Mandy Boutelle, who originally left a career as a hairstylist to become a certified dog walker in San Francisco. When she started doing off-leash group dog walks, she knew she had to learn more about dog training and behavior in order to manage her rowdy young pack. This led her to decide to become a dog trainer. At the start of the pandemic, however, she and her husband decided to move to Oregon and to spread the gospel of positive reinforcement dog training in a unique way: By printing bold-but-simple statements about training and behavior on t-shirts. Links: https://woofcultr.com/ DigiWoof | Web Design & Digital Marketing for Dog Trainers and Pet Pros

Sara Caron had a leash-reactive dog, and as she started to research a quick fix for the problem, she threw out a wide net and tried lots of things. With guidance from this podcast, she began to see a way of dog training that made sense to her. When felt she had reached a plateau in her own solo study of animal behavior, she enrolled in the School For The Dogs Professional Course last year. She got another puppy shortly before starting the course which allowed her to see some remarkable differences in a dog raised with science-based/reward-based training methods versus one who was not. In this episode, Sara and Annie discuss some of the parts that have made the School For The Dogs Professional Course a life-changing experience for its graduates: The individualized attention, access to the SFTD community of trainers, classes, in-depth material, and the guest speakers. They also discuss the process of finding one’s place in the professional world of dog training. Apply to the Professional Course at: https://www.schoolforthedogs.com/professional-dog-training-course/ Applications for the next cohort are due June 30. Cohort begins Aug. 30. Want to learn more? Book a free consult at: http://schoolforthedogs.com/freeconsult --- Partial Transcript: Sara Caron: I developed this deeper relationship with dogs where, prior, dogs might have to me been one thing and dog training might have been one thing, but now it kind of has its – I can see its links to my own life and all these cultural things that we deal with. Yeah. So it just kind of kept getting more and more interesting to me. Annie: Sara Caron. I am so happy to have you here. Why don't you introduce yourself and we can just go from there. Sara: Sure. I'm Sara Caron. I'm a recent graduate of the School For The Dogs professional Cho. And I'm in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Annie: You know, I think I told you this, but my dad's family's from Milwaukee. Sara: Oh cute. You did tell me that. Annie: Although I've never been there, but the main association I have with all things Wisconsin is that my grandmother when she would yell at my dad would be, I remember her always saying “Baaaab.” Sara: Yeah. That sounds about right. Yeah. Annie: His name was Bob and I remember drawing a cartoon of her when I was like seven and I spelled it out like B-A-A-A-A-B. Sara: That's adorable. So yeah, I'm from Chicago. I grew up in the city, but I've been living here long enough that that sounds very, very familiar. Annie: So I guess let's maybe just talk chronologically about how you got to the professional course. And then I guess we can talk a little bit about what that experience is like, because we are welcoming in our next cohort at the end of August, and I would love for anyone else who's interested in becoming a professional to sort of hear about what the experience was like for you. Full Transcript at SchoolForTheDogs.com/Podcast

Leeyah Wiseman is a recent graduate of School For The Dogs Professional Course. If you follow us on TikTok or Instagram, you probably know her from the videos she does for SFTD. While she never thought of herself as a "dog person," she ended up adopting a puppy, George, and falling in love with him. But then she realized she had an issue on her hands: Separation anxiety. Her work figuring out how to deal with this issue in a way that felt right led her to decide to become a dog trainer. Annie and Leeyah discuss how she worked with her dog to improve his anxiety, what she got out of the Professional Course, and popular notions of what it means to "be" positive. Find Leeyah on Instagram @galdogtraining and @schoolforthedogs! Like this podcast? Please rate and review on iTunes! Learn more about the Professional Course at http://schoolforthedogs.com/professionalcourse22 Next cohort starts in late August! ---- Spoil your smart pooch with a Brainy Box! Listen to the episode for a special discount code to our new monthly subscription box. http://schoolforthedogs.com/brainybox --- Leeyah: I feel like just being – it felt like we were just there, and we were able to see how things played out in real life when tough training questions come up. When random training questions come up. When things happen like a dog peeing on the floor in the middle of a session. Or a dog needs a different type of assignment because they're struggling with something. And, you know, how to kind of answer questions that are tough, how to move training sessions along in a real way. ‘Cause in the course we kind of had a module on that as well. And then seeing it actually, especially seeing the trainers that do it the same way in the course, because it's like the School For The Dogs' method. It was kind of like a whole big picture of everything. [music] Annie: If you follow us on Instagram, TikTok, then you have seen Leeyah Wiseman who is a recent graduate of of School For The Dogs’ Professional Course. You are about to get to know her a little bit more. You can learn more about the Professional Course at schoolforthedogs.com/professionalcourse22. I am thrilled to have you on the podcast yet again. Maybe you can just introduce yourself. Leeyah: My name is Leeyah Wiseman and I took the 2021 professional course, and I also do social media for School For The Dogs. So I do a lot of the coordination for the Instagram page and some talks and things like that. Annie: Which are really awesome and fun. And I love how you just go for it. Leeyah: Yeah. You gotta, you really have to. I mean, it's kind of like, if you don't then you're not gonna really make good content. Nobody's gonna watch something that you're not like being authentic in. Annie: Yeah. And you just gotta put yourself out there. I think it's a lesson about so many things. And some people really can't do it and when you do do it, you're accepting risk, right? Leeyah: Yeah. Annie: And you're accepting, you're opening yourself up to the possibility of failure and criticism, which can be no small thing. Right? Full Transcript at SchoolForTheDogs.com/Podcast