Decoder with Nilay Patel

We keep hearing over and over that generative AI is causing massive problems in education, both in K-12 schools and at the college level. Lots of people are worried about students using ChatGPT to cheat on assignments, and that is a problem. But really, the issues go a lot deeper, to the very philosophy of education itself. We sat down and talked to a lot of teachers — you’ll hear many of their voices throughout this episode — and we kept hearing one cri du coeur again and again: What are we even doing here? What’s the point? Links: Majority of high school students use gen AI for schoolwork | College Board Quarter of teens have used ChatGPT for schoolwork | Pew Research Your brain on ChatGPT | MIT Media Lab My students think it’s fine to cheat with AI. Maybe they’re on to something. | Vox How children understand & learn from conversational AI | McGill University ‘File not Found’ | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

David Risher was on Lyft's board for years, but only stepped in as CEO in 2023, to help turn the company around. He's done pretty well so far, but there are still a lot of open questions for him to face. It's not just competition for riders and drivers Lyft has to deal with; it’s the future of transportation itself, and new AI tools that might take apps like Lyft out of the equation entirely. Links: Lyft’s first ‘robotaxis’ are live in Atlanta | The Verge Tensor robocar will be “Lyft ready” out of the factory | Engadget Congrats, Lyft | The Verge Lyft’s AI assistant offers drivers advice on how to make money | The Verge Lyft gets toehold in Europe with FreeNow acquisition | The Verge Lyft co-founders to step down as company struggles | New York Times How Silicon Valley enshittified the internet | Decoder Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Sarah Jeong, features editor at The Verge. I’m standing in for Nilay for one final Thursday episode here as he settles back into full-time hosting duties. Today, we’ve got a fun one. I’m talking to Cory Doctorow, prolific author, internet activist, and arguably one of the fiercest tech critics writing today. He has a new book out called Enshittifcation: Why Everything Suddenly Got Worse and What to Do About It. So I sat down with Cory to discuss what enshittification is, why it’s happening, and how we might fight it. Links: Enshittification | Macmillan Why every website you used to love is getting worse | Vox The age of Enshittification | The New Yorker Yes, everything online sucks now — but it doesn’t have to | Ars Technica The enshittification of garage-door openers reveals vast, deadly rot | Cory Doctorow Mark Zuckerberg emails outline plan to neutralize competitors | The Verge Google gets to keep Chrome, judge rules in antitrust case | The Verge How Amazon wins: by steamrolling rivals and partners | WSJ A new web DRM standard has security researchers worried | The Verge Netflix, Microsoft & Google just changed how the web works | The Outline Subscribe to The Verge⁠ to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

LexisNexis is one of the most important companies in the entire legal system. For ages it's been where you went to look up case law and do legal research. There isn’t a lawyer today who hasn’t used it — it’s fundamental infrastructure for the legal profession, just like email or a word processor. But in 2025, apparently nobody can resist the siren call of AI, and LexisNexis is no different. The first word Sean said to describe LexisNexis wasn’t “law” or “data,” it was “AI.” And I had questions, because so far AI has created just as much chaos and slop in the courts as anywhere else. Links: Errors found in judge’s withdrawn decision stink of AI | The Verge Why do lawyers keep using ChatGPT? | The Verge Conservative judge says AI could strengthen originalist movement | Reuters LexisNexis CEO says it’s ‘a matter of time’ before attorney loses a license | Fortune Two companies ruled legal tech for decades. AI is blowing that open | BI Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today’s guests are General Motors CEO Mary Barra and new GM Chief Product Officer Sterling Anderson. There’s a lot of big news the company just announced, including a Google Gemini-powered AI assistant that's coming to new cars and an entirely new hardware and software platform coming to the Escalade IQ in 2028 alongside true Level 3 autonomous driving. So I asked Mary about all of that and how she's navigating the current moment, and her company's relationship with the Trump administration. I also got into the details on GM’s platform with Sterling, including its decision to ditch Apple CarPlay on its EVs and what all this looks like in the future as AI voice assistants and more capable autonomy come into the mix. Read the full transcript on The Verge. Links: GM says hands-free, eyes-off driving is coming to Escalade IQ | The Verge GM takes a $1.6 billion hit on EVs | ⁠The Verge GM software boss on ditching CarPlay | Decoder Ford CEO on China, tariffs, and the quest for a $30,000 EV | Decoder The EV tax credit is gone — now the hard part begins | Decoder GM blocks dealership from installing CarPlay retrofit kits in EVs | The Verge Everybody hates GM’s decision to kill Apple CarPlay | The Verge GM hires ex-Tesla, Aurora exec as chief product officer | CNBC Cruise’s robotaxi service will shut down as GM pulls its funding | The Verge Newsom names GM’s Mary Barra as villain in fight with feds | Streetlight CA Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, it’s Nilay. I’m back from parental leave, and I’m really excited to jump back into Decoder. Today’s episode is a special one: I’m talking to Zocdoc CEO Oliver Kharraz, and we chatted live on stage at the TechFutures conference in New York City. You’re almost certainly familiar with ZocDoc — it’s a platform that helps people find and book appointments with doctors. It’s a classic of the early app economy. The big difference is that Zocdoc plugs into the U.S. healthcare system, which is of course a giant mess, and that means Zocdoc has a big moat. So we talked about competition, navigating the US healthcare system, and, of course, what AI is doing to medicine. Links: "Superhuman" AI could transform medicine, Zocdoc CEO says | Axios How AI is changing your doctors appointments | Fast Company This Strategy ‘Nearly Killed’ Zocdoc. | Inc. Zocdoc Turns 18 | Oliver Kharraz / LinkedIn Meet Zo, the AI Phone Assistant for healthcare | Zocdoc Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Jake Kastrenakes, executive editor at The Verge. I’m filling in for Nilay here while he settles back into full-time hosting duties. We’ve got a very good episode for you today. My guest is Verge transportation editor Andy Hawkins, and we’re talking about the federal EV tax credit. The tax credit expired at the end of September, and there are a lot of questions about what happens to the auto industry after its demise. This is a really hard, complicated set of problems, with a lot of moving parts, so I was really excited to have Andy on the show to break down all of these components and give us a clearer picture about what’s coming next. Links: The EV tax credit is dead — here’s what happens next | The Verge GM takes a $1.6 billion hit on EVs | The Verge Ford CEO Jim Farley on China, tariffs, and affordable EV | The Verge Ford lost $5 billion on EVs in 2024, teases new models | The Verge EV makers fill tax-credit void with costly discounts | Automotive News So much for Ford and GM’s scheme to extend the EV tax credit | The Verge Stellantis replaces EV tax credit with its own discount | Automotive News Tesla sales picking up thanks to expiring tax credit | The Verge California Reverses Pledge To Revive EV Tax Credit | SF Chronicle Global EV sales growth slows to 15% in August, research firm says | Reuters Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you're a paid subscriber to the Verge, there's great news: you can now listen to Decoder, Version History, and The Vergecast completely ad-free. Just head to your Account Settings page to opt-in and start listening without ads. Not a member of The Verge yet? No worries! You can sign up at theverge.com/subscribe to get ad-free podcasts, plus other perks like exclusive newsletters and unlimited access to everything we publish. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Hayden Field, senior AI reporter at The Verge and your Thursday episode guest host. It’s been a very big news week in AI, and a lot of it had to do with OpenAI, its DevDay in San Francisco this week, and the viral explosion of AI-generated video thanks to the company’s new Sora app. So I brought in Kanjun Qiu, CEO of AI startup Imbue and a close watcher of the industry, to break down what’s really happening, why it’s happening, and the societal implications of it all. Links: All of the updates from OpenAI DevDay 2025 | The Verge OpenAI wasn’t expecting Sora’s copyright drama | The Verge I’ve fallen into Sora’s slippery slop | The Verge Sora 2 users are having fun with Sam Altman’s face | The Verge OpenAI will let developers build apps that work inside ChatGPT | The Verge OpenAI wants ChatGPT to be your future operating system | Wired Sora 2 watermark removers flood the web | 404 Media What the arrival of AI-fabricated video means for us | NYT Recruiters use AI to scan résumés — applicants are trying to trick it | NYT Employers are buried in AI-generated résumés | NYT Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I’m Joanna Stern, the senior personal tech columnist at The Wall Street Journal, and this is my final Decoder episode filling in for Nilay while he’s out on parental leave. My guest today: Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe. This is RJ’s third time on the show, and it felt like the perfect follow-up to my conversation last week with Ford CEO Jim Farley. I loved the idea of going straight from Ford to Rivian. And if you listened to the Farley episode, this one flows nicely. RJ and I cover a lot of the same challenges: tariffs, China, EV pricing. Of course, I also asked about CarPlay. Links: A pretty fascinating look under the hood of the Rivan R2 | The Verge Rivian CEO says CarPlay isn’t going to happen | The Verge Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe says too many carmakers are copying Tesla | Decoder Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe isn't scared of the Cybertruck | Decoder Rivian breaks ground on $5 billion Georgia plant | AP Rivian narrows 2025 delivery guidance Q3 as production slips | WSJ Rivian R2 remains on track for $45,000 and 2026 production | Car and Driver Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Hayden Field, senior AI reporter at The Verge and your Thursday episode guest host. Today, I’m talking with David Hershey, who leads the applied AI team at Anthropic. I wanted to have David on because earlier this week, Anthropic released a brand-new AI model called Claude Sonnet 4.5 that’s been making waves. So I wanted to sit down with David, who spends a lot of time testing out what modes like Claude Sonnet 4.5 can and can’t do, to ask him where we are on this promise of AI agents, and also what the path forward looks like as agentic technology progresses. Links: Anthropic releases Claude Sonnet 4.5 in latest bid for AI agents | The Verge ChatGPT’s built-in Buy Now button has arrived | The Verge OpenAI really wants you to start your day with ChatGPT Pulse | The Verge Anthropic’s Claude AI is playing Pokémon | The Verge AI agents are science fiction not yet ready for primetime | The Verge Agents are the future AI companies promise and need | The Verge Amazon is betting on agents to win the AI race | Decoder Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Joanna Stern, senior personal technology columnist at The Wall Street Journal. I’m the last Monday guest host filling in for Nilay here on Decoder while he’s out on parental leave with his adorable new son, and I’m very excited to be talking today to Ford CEO Jim Farley. I’m a longtime Decoder listener and my favorite episodes are car episodes. I think car CEOs are currently facing some of the most fascinating and complex challenges in both tech and business. So when I was asked to guest host the show I said, “That’s it, car CEOs.” And Farley was at the top of the list. This was a great conversation that covered a lot of ground. I think you’re going to like it. Links: I’ve been driving an EV for a year. I have only one regret. | WSJ Ford reveals breakthrough process for lower priced EVs | The Verge Ford is betting the future on smaller EV batteries | The Verge Ford is doubling down on EVs — the timing is awful | The Verge Ford’s CEO on the essential economy and its untapped potential | Aspen Institute Ford rejigs EV plans after suffering billions in losses | NYT Why Americans can’t buy the world’s best electric car | NYT Ford CEO Jim Farley on building the electric F-150 | Decoder Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Hayden Field, senior AI reporter at The Verge — and your Thursday episode guest host. I have another couple of shows for you while Nilay is out on parental leave, and we’re going to be spending more time diving into some of the unforeseen consequences of the generative AI boom. Today, I’m talking with Heidy Khlaaf, who is chief AI scientist at the AI Now Institute, about the tech industry’s shift toward AI military applications. I wanted to know what’s motivated this shift, and why Heidy thinks leading AI firms are being far too cavalier about deploying generative AI in high-risk scenarios. Links: OpenAI is softening its stance on military use | The Verge OpenAI awarded $200 million US defense contract | The Verge OpenAI is partnering with defense tech company Anduril | The Verge Anthropic launches new Claude service for military and intelligence use | The Verge Anthropic, Palantir, Amazon team up on defense AI | Axios Google scraps promise not to develop AI weapons | The Verge Microsoft employees occupy headquarters in protest of Israel contracts | The Verge Microsoft’s employee protests have reached a boiling point | The Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Guest host Hank Green talks with his friend Dropout CEO Sam Reich about keeping a business simple, trying to run a company the “right way,” and why the internet should be full of as many weird little projects as possible. Links: How CollegeHumor reinvented itself for the new internet age | People CollegeHumor shaped online comedy. What went wrong? [2020] | Wired ‘I believe in this enough to try to do it myself’ [2020] | Digiday Jacob Wysocki needed a minute to process that Game Changer | Vulture Game Changer smartly weaponizes its online following | Mashable Vimeo CEO Philip Moyer is betting on the human touch | Decoder Vimeo to be acquired by Bending Spoons for $1.38B | The Verge Transcript: Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Verge senior AI reporter Hayden Field and New York Times reporter Kashmir Hill discuss the significant mental health impact AI chatbots, such as ChatGPT, can have on users — both people in crisis, and also people who seemed stable. This episode contains non-detailed discussions of suicide and mental illness. If you or someone you know is in crisis, considering self-harm, or needs to talk, please call the Lifeline at 988. Links: A teen was suicidal. ChatGPT was the friend he confided in. | New York Times Sam Altman says ChatGPT will stop talking about suicide with teens | The Verge Chatbots can go into a delusional spiral. Here’s how. | New York Times Why is ChatGPT telling people to email me? | New York Times They asked an AI chatbot questions. The answers sent them spiraling. | New York Times She is in love with ChatGPT | The New York Times ‘I feel like I’m going crazy’: ChatGPT fuels delusional spirals | Wall Street Journal Meta, OpenAI face FTC inquiry on chatbots’ impact on kids | Bloomberg Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Hank Green, the cofounder of Complexly. I’m back for my second guest hosting spot here on Decoder while Nilay is out on parental leave. Today, I’m talking with Digitas CEO Amy Lanzi, who runs a major marketing and ad agency. You might remember Amy; Nilay interviewed her for Decoder live at an event in New York City almost a year ago. But Nilay, who runs what might be the last website on Earth, has a very different perspective on the world of digital marketing than I do. So as a career YouTuber, I had a lot of questions for someone in a position like Amy’s. Links: Digitas unveils new generative AI platform, Digitas AI | Digitas Amy Lanzi on steering Digitas through the demands of modern marketing | Sightly Introducing Reddit Community Intelligence | Reddit Digitas North America announces Amy Lanzi as CEO | Digitas Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Alex Heath. For my final episode as your Thursday episode guest host, I recently sat down with Bret Taylor, the CEO of AI startup Sierra and the chairman of OpenAI, for a live event in San Francisco hosted by Alix Partners. Bret has worked at Google, Facebook, and Salesforce in high-level, executive roles, and he led Twitter’s board during Elon Musk’s takeover, so very few people have seen the tech industry up close like Bret has. Now, he’s all in on AI. We covered a lot of ground in this conversation, and I hope you find Bret’s perspective as fascinating as I did. Links: Ex-Salesforce co-CEO Bret Taylor’s Sierra is the latest $10 billion AI startup | CNBC I talked to Sam Altman about the GPT-5 launch fiasco | Verge Sam Altman says ‘yes,’ AI is in a bubble | Verge MIT study on AI profits rattles tech investors | Axios GPT-5 Pro can prove new, interesting mathematics | Sebastien Bubeck AI chatbots are ready to talk to customers. Sort of. | WSJ How is AI different than other technology waves? | Acquired Podcast Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Hank Green, cofounder of Complexly. You might remember last year when I turned the tables on Nilay and interviewed him on his own show. That was a ton of fun, and it was so much fun that they’ve brought me back again. This time, I’m stepping in for Nilay to host the next few Decoder episodes while he’s out on parental leave. Today, I’m talking with a very special guest: Sal Khan, the founder and CEO of Khan Academy. Sal was actually Nilay’s second-ever guest on Decoder, back in 2020. And well, a whole lot has changed since then. So I wanted to have Sal back on to ask what it’s like running Khan Academy today, in the aftermath of the pandemic. But also how online learning is about to change, in really dramatic ways, due to artificial intelligence. Links: Sal Khan on A.I.'s promise and its risks | NBC News (YouTube) The best-case scenario for AI in schools | BBC News Meet Khanmigo: the student tutor AI being tested in schools | 60 Minutes| 60 Minutes Remote learning is here to stay — can we make it better? | Decoder Hank Green makes Nilay Patel explain why websites have a future | Decoder In classrooms, teachers put AI tutoring bots to the test | NYT Elite colleges have found a new virtue for applicants to fake | NYT Everyone Is cheating their way through college | New York Magazine Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Despite being one of the most valuable companies in the world, OpenAI is still technically a nonprofit. That’s what set the stage for the dramatic board coup in 2023 that briefly ousted Sam Altman as CEO. And now, OpenAI is trying to shake this nonprofit structure so it can raise even more money and, eventually, go public. There’s a lot at stake here, and not just for OpenAI. Links: OpenAI abandons plans to become a for-profit company | The Verge Why California’s AG must continue the investigation into OpenAI | CalMatters An open letter to OpenAI | EyesOnOpenAI OpenAI eyes $50B valuation in potential employee share sale | Reuters OpenAI thinks its critics are funded by billionaires | San Francisco Standard Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, and welcome to Decoder! This is Senior Producer Nick Statt. We’re on a small break for the end of summer, and, sadly, Nilay will still be out a little while longer when we come back. But we have an excellent slate of guest host episodes starting up next month, so stay tuned for those. In the meantime, we wanted to bring back one of our favorite Decoder interviews from earlier this year. It’s with Bookshop CEO Andy Hunter, who back in January launched a pretty bold ebook initiative to take on Amazon and Kindle. It’s been about seven months, but Bookshop has seen big results, including more than $1 million in ebook sales. So we thought it was a good time to revisit our conversation with Andy. Links: Bookshop.org reports 65% growth, e-books add $1 Million in sales | Publishers Weekly Bookshop CEO Andy Hunter’s crusade to save books from Amazon | Decoder Bookshop.org is launching an ebook store to take on Amazon | Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices